Keen Diy'ers?

[FastFreddy2]

Today I finally fitted the sink from a cloakroom suite I bought 5 years ago.

It wasn't a hard job. The plumbing had been completed a week or two ago. The mounting studs, maybe 2 years ago. The bug-bear was a canted pedestal (resolves by forming a fibreglass wedge on the base) and some poorly designed taps, with an even less well designed waste.

I trial fitted the whole thing before 'fixing'. The fixing included some silicon blobs on the back of the basin to stop subsequent movement, especially if someone leant on it. The sink and pedestal were not made to live together, if their actual fit is anything to go by. The set (loo, sink and fittings) were not cheap, though were certainly overpriced .... I am a little older, and considerably wiser,  I hope.  

So it all fitted. Tap flexi tails reached. The waste pipework reached. The pedestal was located in the right place (if such a place exists). Blobs of silicon on, the sink was offered up to the studs, and sat on the pedestal. Once levelled and the nuts done up on the studs, the sink was off the pedestal! Not that there was ever much contact, but now there was none. Not wanting to pull the studs out of the wall, or bend them, I've added some fibreglass pads between the sink and the pedestal for support. I'll add some hardening adhesive later, but I needed to support the sink somehow immediately.

With everything in place and connected, I gave the taps and waste a run-through. The tap is pointed correctly and water bounces off the waste pop-up. Sadly, the cold water (mains) pressure is so high, I sprayed the WHOLE bathroom when I opened up the cold tap. Worried this pressure might force the press-fit connector off, I checked the flexi. Held secure, but seemed a little short? I hadn't left much excess on the supply pipe, but I was sure I'd left enough so I could 'wiggle' the flexi a little. Rather disappointed, I realised I'd made a mistake and would have to add some length to the pipe. As I drained down the cold supply, I concluded my planned trip to London was going to be postponed AGAIN. 

 With the trip now off, I ordered up a mug of the house coffee, and took a break.

Draining down the cold pipework didn't take long. Once I had drained it, I again had a little wiggle on the flexi, and it moved? It wasn't flapping around, but adding length to the copper supply pipe seemed almost pointless. I reconnected the open pipework, and re-pressurised the cold feed again. The flexi went rock hard, due to the water pressure.  I probably need to make sure that Hep₂0 doesn't have a low pressure threshold for letting go, and I also need to check the pressure of our water supply? (Which might cost a little bit of money for equipment I don't currently own.) I've spent a small part of this evening, pricing up a "pressure reducing valve"... A side benefit of the pressure reduction would be to remove the opportunity for guests to cover themselves and the bathroom, with a lot of water. As I did twice. (I'd left the cold tap on when I drained it down. Got wet a second time.)

As I say, if it was easy, someone else would be doing it.  

 

 

 

  

 

Edited October 26, 2015 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer]

That over-priced and poorly designed suite sounds as though it came from Bathstore, Freddy.   I fitted one once for a friend and had various problems, especially with poorly-formed fixing holes through porcelain, at risk of causing a crack.    And it is very common for basins not to sit nicely on pedestals, or for the bowl not to be level (front-back) if the back is sitting nicely flush with a truly vertical wall.   I usually employ a good squirt of white silicone twixt basin and pedestal (a) to give a cushion and take up some irregularity; (b) to prevent movement.   In a really bad case, a little packing can be buried in the silcone too - offcuts of vinyl sheet are very useful for this (and under pedestals and in 1001 other DIY applications where a smallish gap needs to be filled).

I don't think you need to worry about max mains water pressure in any properly-made plastic plumbing; they are designed for such and, in fact, the increasing pressure tends to make the grab-rings 'bite' even more.   Rather than messy about with a PRV (£15 - 20 wasted), why not just partially close the isolating valve to the cold tap?   (Or if the problem is a general one, partially close the main stopcock, cock.)   Be grateful that you have enough pressure for all normal purposes!   A simple flow-checker will indicate the mains pressure, but its 'bar value' is not really of interest (except when installing a boiler or other sensitive kit) - if it runs right at the tap (no drenching), it is right.

[FastFreddy2]

I don't think you need to worry about max mains water pressure in any properly-made plastic plumbing; they are designed for such and, in fact, the increasing pressure tends to make the grab-rings 'bite' even more.   Rather than messy about with a PRV (£15 - 20 wasted), why not just partially close the isolating valve to the cold tap?   (Or if the problem is a general one, partially close the main stopcock, cock.)   Be grateful that you have enough pressure for all normal purposes!   A simple flow-checker will indicate the mains pressure, but its 'bar value' is not really of interest (except when installing a boiler or other sensitive kit) - if it runs right at the tap (no drenching), it is right.

The suite was from B+Q advertised as an 'end-of-range' discount bargain from Armitage Shanks. We got the money back for the toilet+cistern because it wasn't possible to use the cistern innards. The through-hole for the inlet was both under-size and tilted. It took 15 minutes and a cheap Chinese sourced diamond coated (core) drill to put that right. (After I got a refund. Nothing lost if I screwed it up.) When I spoke to the manufacturers, they expressed some surprise at how much I had paid for the suite ... Lesson learned? Buy the cheapest, and spend the difference making it work, rather than spending good money on a poor product and then spend even more money making it work.  

Reducing the flowrate won't affect the pressure. I am VERY appreciative of the mains pressure, and was another reason I was happy to get a 30kw boiler since poor pressure/flow-rate would have made the bigger boiler pointless otherwise. I've not seen the likes of it anywhere else. We must live 100 yards from a pump. Comes out of the taps like its attached to a fire hydrant.   Turning the stop-cock to reduce the flow rate makes it very noisy too. while I agree the £20 for a PRV might be an avoidable expense, most of my 'experience' with plumbing has come with some cost attached. I'm almost certainly going to 'give it a go' to see what difference it makes. 

[Puffer]

 

The suite was from B+Q advertised as an 'end-of-range' discount bargain from Armitage Shanks. ... When I spoke to the manufacturers, they expressed some surprise at how much I had paid for the suite ... Lesson learned? Buy the cheapest, and spend the difference making it work, rather than spending good money on a poor product and then spend even more money making it work.  

Reducing the flowrate won't affect the pressure. ...

1.   Are you saying that AS thought you had been over-charged, even though it was allegedly a discount bargain?   AS products are not normally cheap, but quality is usually reliable.   I do agree with the principle of buy cheap and make it work; in my experience (in most fields), you do not get what you pay for, except perhaps at the very extremes of the price range.   (Funnily enough, the nice new inset basin I put in at my flat is an AS - £2.00 at a boot-sale!   It lacked the fixing clamps but they were easily made.   And the shower bath is also AS, bought as 'unwanted' through the local paper.)

2.   Obstructing the flow (locally) should limit splashing from too great a volume under high pressure.   Yes, a PRV might well do the job more succinctly but it may not be really necessary.   But then I haven't seen the system, and if pressure is very high, a PRV might be the only effective solution.   You might want to speak to your water supplier; it is possible the main is at the wrong pressure.

[FastFreddy2]

1.   Are you saying that AS thought you had been over-charged, even though it was allegedly a discount bargain?   AS products are not normally cheap, but quality is usually reliable.   I do agree with the principle of buy cheap and make it work; in my experience (in most fields), you do not get what you pay for, except perhaps at the very extremes of the price range.   (Funnily enough, the nice new inset basin I put in at my flat is an AS - £2.00 at a boot-sale!   It lacked the fixing clamps but they were easily made.   And the shower bath is also AS, bought as 'unwanted' through the local paper.)

"Overcharged" wasn't the phrase their Customer Service chappie used, it went more along the line of; "and you paid that much after the discount?" 

We paid £250 for .....

Pan and close coupled cistern.

Which included siphon, filler/float valve, doughnut and two button plunger.

Sink and pedestal

Which included large monobloc tap with chromed tails, and push up waste.

Set of matching monobloc bath taps.

We paid a higher price because of the branding and the quality expected from it. Customer service was very good. We didn't have to go to B+Q, we got the refund from AS directly - and quickly.

Pictures show the undersize hole, and the cant in it, that producing a float valve position which meant it touched the side of the cistern.

 

 

2.   Obstructing the flow (locally) should limit splashing from too great a volume under high pressure.   Yes, a PRV might well do the job more succinctly but it may not be really necessary.   But then I haven't seen the system, and if pressure is very high, a PRV might be the only effective solution.   You might want to speak to your water supplier; it is possible the main is at the wrong pressure.

I will try to ascertain the actual pressure before pursuing this.  

 

Edited October 26, 2015 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer]

I suppose £250 would have been OK for first-quality AS items not on clearance, but I would normally expect a good mid-range suite (i.e. inc bath) for that money!   Still, it was good that you were able to salvage the WC cistern.

13 years ago, during a bathroom refit at home, I chanced upon a complete spa-bath suite (i.e. bath with fitted jets, pump, blower, basin/pedestal, cc WC, taps, traps) being sold ex-display at B&Q for £250.   It was slightly marked (customer abuse) and a couple of the spa bath control knobs were found missing after I bought it.   The spa bath manufacturer was very helpful with some technical info and supplied the missing bits at nominal cost - which B&Q refunded cheerfully.   The price new would have been nearly £1,000 and the whole set-up worked well, so I was pleased (as was the wife).   The marks (mainly odd scratches in the bath) were of little consequence as they would have appeared anyway after a period of use, but I diminished them with some Perspex polish and elbow grease.

Let me know how you get on with the mains issue - 'no pressure'!

[FastFreddy2]

I think I got around £120 back from AS. I spent around £5 on the diamond sintered 'core' drill to effect a recovery, that was bought direct from China.

I still have the bath taps and should get them sold on an auction site. I also ordered up a much smaller diamond 'core' drill for the rear of the cistern. "As supplied", there were no holes for fixing it to a wall, and no recesses for any form of clips either. This meant vibration from use, caused the water joint on the coupling to weep. Having a clean hole to put a screw through, has made a massive difference. No 'clunk' as the cistern hits the wood divider when you sit, for a start...    

I rediscovered a 38mb .avi file tonight, of our 20 litre kitchen sink being filled via the original 40 year old taps in 30 seconds. The new taps are slightly more efficient. The taps are around 7 metres from the stop-cock and all pipework is 15mm. Flowrate doesn't directly relate to pressure (Google tells me) but that flowrate would need a great deal of pressure to push circa 40 l/m through 7m of 15mm pipe I would think. 

[FastFreddy2]

At the gaff I'm helping to make habitable, there was a joint conclusion the basin taps should be changed. The owner didn't want the waste changed but at £5, it was a no-brainer so it was getting changed regardless.

Flushed with success of (finally) overcoming every hurdle thrown at me by my own bathroom basin, I decided "we" wouldn't wait for the plumber to do the tap change.  Looked like an easy job if I'm honest... (Never is though.) The previous installer has used 'push-fit' adapters on the tails of the taps, so disconnection - on paper at least - would be simple. And unlike the previous kitchen tap job, the supplies had isolation valves. Yay! 

So, off I went...

The first tap was fairly straightforward, not least because it had already been loose for about a year I know of. There was a fair amount of Plumbers Mait (PM) around the base that had been used as a sealer, but years ago I guess that was typical. The other tap ... That was quite a different story. The PM had properly gummed up the thread of the back-nut, but with a little bit of to-ing and fro-ing it gave up and the second tap was released. The Speedfit connections were full of oxidized copper, but functioned still. Some water and a brush cleaned them up. No idea if the seals were still good though.

The real problem, was getting the trap separated from the basin waste. PM had been used again, and while everyone says this stuff never goes hard, I think 10-15 years of exposure to heat and light WILL harden it. Certainly the threaded collar on the trap was locked hard enough to let the collar grips be torn off before it would rotate.  Out with the thin saw blade with handle that I used on the kitchen monobloc taps.  Minutes later, the collar was free.

Same problem with the back nut on the waste. Wouldn't budge, preferring to lest the waste rotate in the basin aperture before letting go. Back to the saw .... But even with one flat cut off the plastic nut, it wouldn't let go. I have to rotate it 180' and cut a second portion off the nut before it would let go.

The most challenging bit was removing the left overs of the plug chain retaining stud. (Or whatever it's called.) The chain and plug have been missing for at least a year I know of, and as you get these with the waste, the old one had to go. Obviously the tiny nut at the back of the stud had rusted onto the threaded stud. Luckily, the nut just broke off. I tried to rotate and pull, the stud out from the basin side, but that just broke off too. I was left with a hole, filled with the leftovers of a rusted up stud. Took me some time to carefully remove the 'stuck-fast' debris, without damaging the porcelain... The rust had spent years expanding to fill the hole completely and securely. 

Finally, everything was off.

Tap and waste replacement was going to be £21 for parts, but a new trap added £7-40 to the cost. With the new parts I should have completed the job the following day (yesterday), but trawling around plumbers merchants, I seem to have lost one of the tap back-nuts. (Got spares at home as I change the plastic ones for brass.) Job will be finished today, all being well.  

On a side issue ... For the second time, I tried to use a Basin Mate to effect a centred and water tight fit on the waste. First attempt failed because the threaded portion of the waste wasn't long enough for me to use it. Undeterred, I attempted to use it on this basin. I got it deep into the basin aperture, and locked it into place, dry. It was done up tight, and looked the part. but it leaked.

I went back to my tried and tested method. Lots of PTFE tape around the threaded portion just above where the back nut would be, and just below the slot for the overflow. I wrap it so the PTFE forms what you engineers will know as an 'interference fit' on the basin waste hole. The waste is centralised and can't slop around when the back-nut is screwed up. I then add some Plumbers Gold to the underneath of the PTFE collar, and push home a rubber washer into the Plumbers Gold. It makes an effective water seal that WILL harden, though remain slightly flexible. Once the back-nut was tightened and trap re-connected, I did another water test, and this time - no leaks!

Maybe the way to use these Basin Mate things, is to either wrap the waste thread in PTFE tape so the BM can grip on a non-texture surface, or the threads on the waste have to be filled with some sort of jointing compound? Given up on them either way. The deciding factor being how difficult they are to get high onto the waste threads. Too much trouble, and not very effective.  

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer]

I think it very unlikely that any PM was used in mounting the taps or waste, Freddy.   It is an effective sealant but I have never known it to go hard; the whole point of PM is that it is a non-setting mastic.   I strongly suspect that it was ordinary glazier's putty that was used to fill the excess space around the taps - an old-fashioned and traditional but pretty effective process.   Putty looks much like PM (er - 'putty coloured') but does set hard of course.   If old putty is set hard and mechanical removal might damage porcelain or taps etc, it can usually be softened by using paint stripper.   (That is a handy dodge too when trying to remove old putty from delicate areas of a window frame.)

Did you hear what happened to the randy DIY fan who didn't know the difference between putty and KY Jelly?   Yes - you've guessed - all his window panes fell out! 

I've never used a Basin Mate so will reserve an opinion.   I usually set wastes in silicone to get an effective seal to porcelain.   I don't think you would get very far trying to get PM (or anything else) to adhere to PTFE tape - it is after all a 'non-stick' product (except of course when the frying pan has been used more than once). 

[FastFreddy2]

5 hours ago, Puffer said:

I think it very unlikely that any PM was used in mounting the taps or waste, Freddy.   It is an effective sealant but I have never known it to go hard; the whole point of PM is that it is a non-setting mastic.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. While I might be overstating the hardness of the goo perhaps intimating it qualifies for a position on the Brinell scale, I am 100% sure this is PM. It maybe I have access to the time served plumber who did the job originally, so I will ask. I would hope I could recognise the smell of linseed in a putty, but if I am wrong I will (reluctantly) 'fess up.

The job is complete anyway. The taps don't move about, which is a pleasant surprise. Them new-fangled anti-rotation washers actually work!

The landlord had his first glimpse tonight. No "Well done, lovely job ...." rather, "We decided to change the waste then? That sink's going to be changed next year." (Meaning late summer 2016). I didn't say so at the time, but I mentioned to his wife when I saw them both later, "He is a tight ......".

I did assure him when he saw the finished job, that since I had taken some care in installing the new bits, it could all be reused again. I also assured him, that the sink won't be going anywhere next year. (He disagreed, but we have that sort of relationship.  While some would say I'm quite 'testy', he takes it to a whole new level. If any of you are familiar with the Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse characters The Old Gits, you'll have some notion of how the landlord's wife, sees the pair of us.)

A fiver, jeez. When I mentioned he was getting plumbing work done at painters rates, he cheered up a bit. This is a man on his way to his second million BTW.....   

 

Edited October 30, 2015 by FastFreddy2

[Shyheels]

That's why he's on this way to his second million...

[Puffer]

Freddy:   if the basin  taps were set in glazier's putty, now fully hardened, I doubt you would detect any significant linseed oil smell unless you warmed the putty up.   Plumbers Mait, on the other hand, has and retains a fairly distinct smell.   But it could have been PM used, although it would scarcely contain the movement of a tap in the hole, as distinct from giving a seal round the tap stem.   I await with bated breath the results of your forensic examination ...

It's been a rather frustrating DIY time here at home this weekend.   I had to replace an increasingly unreliable semi-integrated dishwasher and chose a mid-range Bosch.   Leaving aside the extra work needed to jack-up the new machine (blocks of wood as well as the screw-down feet) because Herr Bosch seems to think that all worktops are somewhat lower than I have normally 'encountered' (pun unintended until just then), the actual preparation and installation of the machine was something of a protracted and complex process, although I had no problems with the existing plumbing (water or waste) and electric connections.   As seems increasingly common, the 'orders which must be obeyed' (aka 'instructions') were in the form of a pictogram with almost no words (English or otherwise).   In other words, neat but by no means crystal clear drawings which are intended to be understood by anyone from Dublin to Damascus (via Dundee, D'Avignon and Dalaman) but in practice are intelligible to almost no-one - except perhaps the proverbial four-year-old boy (who, alas, was not to hand).  And the various tools required (including Torx drivers) are not immediately apparent, although my workshop had them all 'in stock'.   Quite a lot of head-scratching and profanity was involved before I got the thing installed and, after further wrestling with 'operational orders' - in English of a sort but again accompanied by dubious drawings, performing an initial wash-up to the satisfaction of my customer (i.e. SWMBO).   I did not have the same problems with either of the previous dishwashers - a new Baumatic followed by a secondhand (but almost new) Indesit, the latter being without any instructions.

However good and reliable the Bosch proves to be, I was not impressed with the preliminaries.   I strongly suspect that the average householder, however keen and basically competent, would struggle with a like-for-like replacement (as in my case) needing no external plumbing or electrical work - and would likely give up altogether if it was a new installation.   Perhaps that is the intention: 'tis the duty of the common man to make work for the artisan'.   I don't think the pictogram problems etc are unique to German products as I had similar issues when installing some Velux sun tunnels a while ago.   On the other hand, my VW car has a comprehensive but not always comprehensible manual that has still, after some eight years of ownership, failed to acquaint me fully with all the mysteries of what I consider an over-sophisticated piece of automotive engineering - and one which is by no means user-friendly when what should be straightforward tasks (e.g. replacing a blown bulb, let alone a headlamp unit) need to be tackled at home.   All part of life's steep (and potentially expensive) learning-curve, I guess ...

[FastFreddy2]

Looks like the taps have "walked" meaning despite me telling the landlord I would dispose of the 'evidence' he has removed them anyway. I spoke to him a number of times today, but didn't get past cooker/freezer deliveries, bed sizes and what might be the best approach to replace the carcass wrecked by the worktop installer. ('Kitchen fitter' seems an inappropriate title given how much slight of hand work I am doing to cover the mess <literally and metaphorically> he left behind.) Taps didn't get anywhere close to the agenda. What doesn't help is him thinking I'm telepathic. Missing out salient bits of the conversation either insisting he didn't miss out whole phrases or suggesting I should be smart enough to know why he didn't mention the missing bits ... ie I should be able to work it out ....

The last time I saw the taps, early Sunday morning, I dug my nail into the goo. Now, those taps had wear and tear commensurate with 10 years use at least, and knowing this fella hadn't changed the carpet in two rooms for the better part of 20 years, I suspect those taps were even older. The goo was quite likely as old. I would defy any oil based product to not dry out in a constantly warm environment, in 10-15 years. I would even go so far as to say, an open container with liquid oil in it, would likely dry out over that sort or period in a constantly warm environment. Even proper (window) putty dries out, hardens and cracks so has to be renewed every 10 years or so? 

While the goo around the waste connections (threads) was hard enough to prevent the trap parting with the waste, the residue around the non-rotating tap tail that was inside the basin tap hole, was still soft enough for me to dig a lump out with my finger-nail. It was certainly more malleable than a product that is supposed to harden, would be after 10+ years. I think the goo was to prevent water seepage, and any assistance it gave (by drying out) to help prevent tap rotation, was a bonus. 

 

As for the Bosch dishwasher .... Was it not the Germans who introduced computers into cars, that (at the time) needed a VW garage with suitable VW software, to work out what a flashing light on the dash meant? Even now, where a smart phone with blue tooth could be used by the owner to read the error logs or incident logs of the management system, the manufacturers have it so a visit to their franchised garage provides the garage with an error code, that can then be transpose with the use of the makers technical manual. Keeps people employed? And main dealer charges high.

More than 10 years ago I bought a new Clio. (Worst purchasing decision of my life.) 4 months after I bought it, a headlight bulb blew. I bought a bulb, expecting it to be a simple operation.... Not so.... I couldn't see how to do it. as the car was so young, I thought I'd try to eke some goodwill from the garage. So I rang up to enquire what the procedure was. Service department were very happy to tell me the routine. It started with dropping the front bumper, withdrawing the headlight fitting and then accessing the bulb. While Renault "book time" was an hour, he offered to do the job and only charge for 30 minutes, but that would still leave me with a bill of £60+. I said I'd think about it.

Eventually I worked out how to do it in under 10 minutes. (The result of cheap bulbs and newly installed speed bumps on the road away from our cul-de-sac.) You had to stand with your back to the car, almost sitting on the front valence, it was the best position to change the bulb unless you were blessed/cursed with double jointed wrists. The worrying aspect of this really, is that Renault has a work procedure that involves tools, for changing a headlight bulb. Who thought that was a good idea? Sounds like Bosch employs the same principle. Make the job awkward enough so that only trained franchised employees are likely to get the fitting job,

[Shyheels]

Germans have certainly been big with computers into cars! They are reaping a pretty unpleasant harvest now, thanks to some of their more imaginative uses of software for diesel engines - or at least VW certainly is!

Have you ever  read an essay called "Farewell to Model T" by E.B. White? A dazzling essay - he was one of The New Yorker's greatest ever writers and a stylist par excellence. He was writing (quite a few years ago, obviously) about the changes that were becoming noticeable even then in making it harder and harder for people to maintain and repair their own automobiles, and lamenting this drive to greater and greater complexity, seemingly for complexity's sake. It's a great essay, available in a slender hardback. He was, by the way, also the author of Charlotte's Web and one of the greatest ever little guidebooks on writing - Elements of Style. To say nothing of many brilliant articles in The New Yorker.

 

[Puffer]

I think I mentioned before that I was going to assist a friend to install central heating in a flat he owns (asnd is re-letting shortly).   I have been doing so for much of the last fortnight and we are now almost finished, with the boiler about to be 'signed-off' by a friendly (and suitably qualified) heating engineer.

The work has not gone as smoothly or as swiftly as we hoped (does it ever?), mainly due to shortcomings in the existing plumbing which we have had to overcome by a mixture of skill, subterfuge and sheer hard work.   And not helped (in my case) by a return of some sciatica, thus impeding my getting into the usual awkward places and positions (which make the Kama Sutra look positively tame).

We were somewhat taken aback today when lifting the boiler into position.    It is a Glow-worm combi, chosen because it is one of the very few that offers a rear-exit flue and could thus fit into the confined vertical space within a kitchen cupboard.   The boiler itself is, I understand, considered reliable.   The boiler-area preparation and pipe-fitting was certainly more complex and time-consuming than any I have done before but went well enough.   But actually locating the boiler onto its wall-mounted securing frame was not a piece of cake.   The boiler is clearly stated as being OK to mount with a minimum of 20mm clear space above; we had it almost 40mm below the ceiling.   But after lifting it onto its brackets (not easy when both high up and heavy, apart from limitations of any personal weakness!), we were supposed to secure it to the frame with a screw through the TOP of the boiler casing.   Yes, well: where can I get an implement that will allow vertical insertion of a small self-tapping screw into an almost invisible hole at the back of a gap of less than 20mm in height?   A quick call to Mr Glow-worm brought the considered response that the screw could be omitted as the boiler would not fall off the wall and connection of the pipework would improve its rigidity.   Both proved true but I am not happy with the slop still apparent at the top, and even less with such a simple design fault which Glow-worm acknowledged but could not explain - and, unhelpfully, found my suggested idea of substituting a simple peg or even a bent wire that could be pushed into the location 'not a method Glow-worm could approve' as it was non-standard.   Nothing 'idiot-proof' here, I fear.

I will report further when the boiler is commissioned - and assuming nothing blows up or falls off.

[FastFreddy2]

13 hours ago, Puffer said:

The work has not gone as smoothly or as swiftly as we hoped (does it ever?), mainly due to shortcomings in the existing plumbing which we have had to overcome by a mixture of skill, subterfuge and sheer hard work.

 

I will report further when the boiler is commissioned - and assuming nothing blows up or falls off.

 

Experience to date, suggests the answer to the question posed (as I understand the question) is a resolute and emphatic "NO"! Or "Non certe!" to those who would understand the term. (That wouldn't be me, if there was any doubt. )

 

 

While speaking (if I remember correctly) to someone who might have been working in the local Building Regs office, as to what a "suitably qualified" gas boiler installer might look like, there was a suggestion that 'someone who installs a gas boiler without blowing up the rest of the street' was thus qualified. This conclusion was drawn after the immediately previous remark and undeniable reverse logic, that someone who DID blow up a building certainly wouldn't be considered 'qualified'.   

Where you have 'slop' I would think some sort of (metal) hollow wall plug, with a thumbscrew bolt could be adapted in some way to do the job? But you are right in what you say, not much joined up thinking gone into the installation procedure. Usually, when I consult the makers about this sort of thing the response often includes; "You're the first to ask." While they silently add another tick to a box that already has 100+ ticks in it.....  Sounds like the installation kept you away from causing mischief elsewhere at least.    

[Puffer]

We can certainly agree that my question, if it merits anything but a rhetorical answer, has been answered.   And quod non certe fits the bill, ita vero.

The gas connection to the new boiler had been made by me but without removing the sealing disc from the recently-installed meter.   So far, so legal.   The gas connection was finalised by the registered gas engineer yesterday (with my friend present, but I was otherwise engaged) who then fired-up and tested the boiler and the rest of the system.   All was in order and the installation was duly certified and will be notified to Building Control by the engineer, who in effect has adopted the work as his own.   Job done.   (The engineer is a friend of my friend and has certified three or four previous installations done by the pair of us.   He therefore knows our work and capabilities.)

Under the old regs, one merely had to be 'competent' to work on gas - and that was effectively a subjective view of the workman (or his critics!).   It effectively allowed a self-confident householder to do his own gas work, or indeed to do it as a favour for another.   But not to do it for money or in the capacity of (or qua, if you prefer to continue the classical trend) landlord.   The new regs are stricter and effectively require a recognised qualification; the requirement to notify work to BC providing the principal check on who does what.   But this does not of course prevent an unqualified but 'competent' person from meddling with gas in situations where (a) no BC record is required (which precludes a new installation or most appliance changes); and (b) no unwanted physical consequences arise.   The comment by the BC officer you quote was therefore historically valid (if glib), except that the key word should be 'competent', not 'qualified', but is no longer.   And the person who causes an explosion might well be demonstrably 'qualified' (and therefore considered competent) but on that occasion made a mistake which threw doubt on his continuing competence.   (I am qualified in two professions but that does not of course make me incapable of making a mistake when following them, of whatever degree of seriousness.)

As to the 'boiler fixing', the only way I could envisage a 'top anchor' to serve the same purpose as the impossible vertical screw would be to pre-fix a small angle bracket to the boiler case top and screw horizontally through this into the wall behind, using a good light and a long screwdriver (or socket).   But I don't think that would be possible withour piercing Mr Glow-worm's lovely casing, probably invalidating every warranty as well as showing a degree of inventiveness and common-sense that Mr G would deprecate.   I'm sure you are absolutely right about the tick in the box.   As it stands (or hangs), we have done nothing to substitute for the screw and the commissioning engineer was quite happy with this, whilst sharing our surprise/annoyance at the design fault.

[FastFreddy2]

On 15/11/2015, 11:29:18, Puffer said:

 and (b) no unwanted physical consequences arise.   The comment by the BC officer you quote was therefore historically valid (if glib), except that the key word should be 'competent', not 'qualified', but is no longer.

 

What an amusing turn of phrase that is.  

I've no intention of connecting a gas supply to the boiler, as 'the deal' I have on the table is that I'm to do everything except the purge and final commission. That is someone elses job. 

One of my jobs (I've been around the block a bit) was as a production welder. Three times I've been given full-time work on the strength of my abilities, one of which was to weld up cracks on door panels, using oxy-acetylene equipment. Since this put me in a position where I could blow up a large commercial plant and 50 or so other workers in the building, I ought to be considered "competent" to use natural gas. Pressures were considerably higher, more explosive, and burn hotter. Whilst I did make the mistake of allowing the torch to scorch my hair once, the balance of my gas-welding career was accident free. And these skills seem to stick. A couple of years ago I volunteered to complete a minor welding job on the underside of Mrs Freddy's car. An exhaust bracket had cracked on the main box. My pal did something he called welding, with a MIG torch. (The sound tells you if it's a good arc.) I finished the job, not having touched this equipment for over 30 years. It was still good when we sold the car a year later.

   

[Puffer]

10 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

...

I've no intention of connecting a gas supply to the boiler, as 'the deal' I have on the table is that I'm to do everything except the purge and final commission. That is someone elses job. 

...   

There is a difference between 'connection' (i.e. physically positioning the gas pipework and making the various connections, other than that to the live gas supply) and 'commissioning' (i.e. making the live gas connection, purging and then initially operating/adjusting the boiler).   Maybe you misunderstood me; there was no other gas appliance and the newly-installed meter had its output sealing disc still in place, so I was perfectly entitled to run the gas pipe between the meter outlet and the boiler, leaving only the 'commissioning' (including removal of the sealing disc to give a live supply) to the GasSafe engineer, who was perfectly content with this - indeed, he could not object to what I had done.   I think you intend to do no more and no less than me, given the probability that your gas meter output is already 'live' and you will not yourself connect to it.

[FastFreddy2]

2 hours ago, Puffer said:

There is a difference between 'connection' (i.e. physically positioning the gas pipework and making the various connections, other than that to the live gas supply) and 'commissioning' (i.e. making the live gas connection, purging and then initially operating/adjusting the boiler).   Maybe you misunderstood me; there was no other gas appliance and the newly-installed meter had its output sealing disc still in place, so I was perfectly entitled to run the gas pipe between the meter outlet and the boiler, leaving only the 'commissioning' (including removal of the sealing disc to give a live supply) to the GasSafe engineer, who was perfectly content with this - indeed, he could not object to what I had done.   I think you intend to do no more and no less than me, given the probability that your gas meter output is already 'live' and you will not yourself connect to it.

 

Nope, completely understood. 

You have provided a completed (empty) circuit, but have not connected the supply. 

I can't do that, as I will have a live boiler, right up until the meter is disconnected from one boiler, and reconnected to another. Whilst (on paper) I might be able to do that, I am happy to pay a friendly heating engineer to do the final connection and commissioning, very much like the way you have. The difference being, mine is not a new installation, and as such (as you have pointed out) I do not need the qualified rather the competent. While I feel I could justify the competent, I'm happy to pay for qualified, not least because I know at least two willing to do the work, and as of 5 days ago, maybe three.  

 

The fellas I know aren't really interested in the grief of the work that I have here. It's unpleasant, slow work that a plumber at best should do, and even a competent DIY'er ought to be able to manage it. But I do mean competent, not confident. "Chancers" as they used to be known, were never short on confidence, but wholly lacking in competence. 

[Puffer]

 Yes, Freddy, if in your case it is a question of substituting the new boiler for the old (presumably in the same position or almost so), then clearly you cannot yourself lawfully disconnect the old and/or connect the new.   That work needs to be done by a GasSafe engineer, along with the commissioning.  

But you seem to be suggesting that you could in fact do this work on the grounds of being 'competent' (albeit unqualified) - but that is not my understanding of the current regulation; the 'competent' let-out is no longer applicable.   More to the point, whether the installation is a new one or not, the work has to be notified to Building Control (online) in a certified form, and such a certificate can only be given by a registered engineer.   If the engineer will 'adopt' third-party installation work (after checking it) as his own and thus certify it as a whole is up to him; some are too scared of possible repercussions to do this but you and I have luckily found co-operative engineers who recognise our respective competency.  

The position is worse with electrical work requiring Part P certification; many electricians (e.g. NICEIC members) are prohibited by their governing body from certifying third party work, nor can they lawfully 'adopt' such work as their own .   That would not stop one from doing so if he (untruthfully) stated that he had done the work himself, but it is really necessary to find a NAPIT or STROMA member who is authorised for third-party certification and get it approved that way.   Strictly, one should notify BC in advance that one is doing a DIY job and then get either the Council's approved certifier (expensive!) or one's own nominee (if one can be found) to check it all out (before, during and after the installation).   

[FastFreddy2]

2 hours ago, Puffer said:

But you seem to be suggesting that you could in fact do this work on the grounds of being 'competent' (albeit unqualified) - but that is not my understanding of the current regulation; the 'competent' let-out is no longer applicable.   More to the point, whether the installation is a new one or not, the work has to be notified to Building Control (online) in a certified form, and such a certificate can only be given by a registered engineer.   If the engineer will 'adopt' third-party installation work (after checking it) as his own and thus certify it as a whole is up to him; some are too scared of possible repercussions to do this but you and I have luckily found co-operative engineers who recognise our respective competency.  

My 'summary' is subsequent to discussions with the Council reps. My understanding at the time was that while 'qualified' can submit their own forms, compliance forms/payments can be made (possibly with third party checks) which the council organise and accept. It was how the 'undesirable outcome' conversation took place. Not that this is anything other than an academic discussion anyway, since I have people lined up to do the work who are registered.

The (6 year) old boiler is at the front of the house, the new one is to be fitted in what is to become the kitchen, in the back of the house. The gas supply routes are not common.

I have to apply for Building Regs compliance (with payment) when I am in sight of starting the work. Their biggest concern is that I want to remove a dividing wall, and they want photo's or a visit to ensure I don't remove a supporting wall.  

 

2 hours ago, Puffer said:

The position is worse with electrical work requiring Part P certification; many electricians (e.g. NICEIC members) are prohibited by their governing body from certifying third party work, nor can they lawfully 'adopt' such work as their own .   That would not stop one from doing so if he (untruthfully) stated that he had done the work himself, but it is really necessary to find a NAPIT or STROMA member who is authorised for third-party certification and get it approved that way.   Strictly, one should notify BC in advance that one is doing a DIY job and then get either the Council's approved certifier (expensive!) or one's own nominee (if one can be found) to check it all out (before, during and after the installation).   

As far as I'm aware, only new circuits (new loading) for bathrooms and kitchens require 'expert' installation. Again referring back to the discussion with the Council, I spoke about altering the use of a room, and their only concern was new circuits and loading in what will become the kitchen. I'm fairly confident the current 40 amp supply can be pulled out of the wall where it now resides, and re-installed 'as is' elsewhere. That being the case I don't need 'expert'. That is also the case with the other 13 amp circuits. Since I may choose to have a new consumer unit fitted, all circuits will need to be tested anyway. Again. I have 'friendly' people who will do this if I ask them.  

Being realistic, no-one anywhere is going to know what was or wasn't done in my home in the past, anywhere other than what is to become the new location of the kitchen. I have 'unbodged' enough poor electrical work to be confident my work is of a better standard and I have no fear of disasters appearing in the future. I have uncovered at least two fittings where (electrical) resistance producing a fire hazard, was a real prospect. While I like to do things 'right', I am not going to get myself tied up in knots worrying about what I can or can't do. I am continually being chided for 'over-doing' rather than anything else. Even my bodge (temporary) jobs have been known to last 5 years. 

 

As you are aware, the whole concept of these new regs is to prevent 'bodgers' bodging. It's all BS as far as I can see. Older houses don't comply, nor do they need to as they are old. (I am fitting a new 10mm bonding connection to a mains water circuit in the next couple of days, in a house that is 55 years old. A situation the tenant/householder would not have been aware of if the house hadn't become an HMO.) In my own home, the bonding wasn't actually connected to an earth. My walking friend's sister had a new boiler fitted about 12 months ago. My heating man said to me, "flue outlet 6ft min from ground level". Walking friends sister: 5ft from ground level. Walking friends sister and partner, more than happy with installation, as was engineer, and possibly the Council. As I look around my street, flues are too close to windows, or car parking areas. Only the very latest new builds are fully compliant, and even then, for how long?

 I'm not suggesting B.R. should be flagrantly ignored, but I am suggesting it's a bit of a moving hurdle. Sometimes one that isn't pertinent in the practical sense.

[Puffer]

This was never intended to be a debate about what is or is not 'notifiable' work within BR.  You can determine that for yourself by reference to the published BR online.   But, if it is notifiable, BC should be involved and the appropriate certificates provided.   You and I both know that - and also that we can (and do) of course carry out certain work by way of alteration/extension that will never be detected even if strictly notifiable.   (Why do you think I have a good stock of cable in 'old' colours etc?)   The problem, if any, is likely to come when a new/replacement notifiable appliance - such as boiler, gas hob, consumer unit - is installed but never notified and questions are asked on a later sale of the property, e.g. where is cert showing installation date and serial number of boiler?

If you decide to have a new consumer unit fitted, you are no doubt aware of Amendment 3 to 17th Edition Regs.   This requires a metal-clad CU from 1 Jan 2016.   As I understand it, work which commences before that date and includes a new CU will be compliant even if completed after that date.   As lots of existing (perfectly safe) CUs are now being moved at a discount, it is a good time to buy one if the rewire etc is started shortly, regardless of CU fitting date.

I totally agree that BR, not being (mercifully) retrospective are demonstrably flouted on many existing properties/installations - and without any real problems.   When Part P came in 2005, it rendered 'unlawful' at a stroke all sorts of basic DIY electrical work - but that did not make such work (new or existing) suddenly dangerous in fact, only (if new) in law.   The new CU regs are another example; existing types do not suddenly become dangerous when the regs change.   (It is much the same argument when a driver parks to cause an alleged 'obstruction' - even a blatantly physical obstruction may be lawfully caused if one has the right excuse/permission (or pays the right money); conversely, many vehicles that are clearly causing no physical obstruction are deemed obstructions in law.) 

[FastFreddy2]

20 hours ago, Puffer said:

If you decide to have a new consumer unit fitted, you are no doubt aware of Amendment 3 to 17th Edition Regs.   This requires a metal-clad CU from 1 Jan 2016.   

 

Not at all. 

I expect the people I know, to fit the right unit. The quote I have on the table is from a long-time customer, who still phones me for the occasional bit of advice, so I'm sure he wouldn't fit anything obsolete. Since the position of my CU is in a bad place, and the tails are going to be pretty short, I'm not contemplating anything other than a 'qualified' install. 

At this time, the change is only a 'would like', not a 'going to have', although going to have nearly always become a have. 

My reluctance at the moment (and for the past couple of years) is the prospect of low amp consumption looking like a leak and the circuit tripping? I have a vague recollection of something like it, which is why CU started to come with partitions. I probably have the wrong cause/symptom, but I do remember 'false' tripping being a problem. Since I have a family friend who owns an electrical wholesalers, I'm sure he/they will have the details, and the current solution.

My impetus for a change would be the ease with which I can isolate circuits, which at present, is not very easy at all. As I say, the fusebox is in a very poor choice of location. (As is everything here, it would seem.)  

 

Edited November 21, 2015 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer]

My point was merely that, if a new CU is on the horizon, it would be simpler and cheaper to organise it now than to wait for the new regs and extra cost, as metal-clad CUs are dearer, quite apart from discounts on stocks of current types.   If you have a quote for supplying and fitting one, it is not likely to remain valid if the cost increases under the new regs - unless your sparky is on really good terms with you.   I wasn't expecting you to fit it yourself, even though you might wish to supply a CU of your choice (bought wisely).

My house has some 18 circuits split between 2 CUs, both with a mixture of hard-wired fuse carriers and plug-in MCBs.   Two additional circuits (one outdoor) have RCDs and subsidiary fuses.   Ideally, I would like the whole set-up to be RCD protected but replacing everything right now with a new 17th edition CU is not justified in terms of work or cost; I have other priorities.   I do have 'in stock' a nice Wylex CU with 2 RCDs and room for 15 MCBs (scarcely used and including some 10 MCBs, bought for a very low boot-sale price) which could be used for the main circuits, if installed before 31 Dec, but that ain't going to happen.   The MCBs etc can still be used elsewhere and were well worth the outlay.