FastFreddy2 Posted October 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Maybe you were actually trying to buy at a TS within W? Nope. I think Wickes are trying to take on SF and TS possibly? The store has been altered to show more 'installed' kitchen set ups like a mini-showroom, with less space for viewable stock. Without doubt the SF and TS model works, though staffing at SF seems to be an issue that might be 7 day working and wages related. If Wickes see themselves needing to reduce floor space to manage costs, compressing product storage is an answer.While I have almost always found SF to be cheaper than most, I have occasionally 'caught a cold' buying without checking prices first. I can't remember exactly what it was, but on one particular item I got scalped. Might have been plumbing or paint treatment. I try to check all the time, but usually only travel where savings outweigh additional travel costs. I'd driven to Wickes yesterday because the town I went to had the part I wanted to try. I hadn't spotted it at B+Q on-line because it was 5 pages deeper than the products I looked at initially. (40mm waste fittings.) The B+Q search engine is the worst on-line one I know of. An example of how useless the B+Q search engine is ... I tried looking for soil pipe by entering "soil". I got earth based bags of -yes- soil, and sand. Not one single match against soil pipe. Typing in soil pipe, got matches. Why not "soil"? (Answer is lazy coding on key-field criteria.) Here are the two price comparisons for the item I bought. Not that I'm keeping it as it doesn't work in the position I want to use it.£3-97 at B+Q >> here <<£4-09 at SF >> here << What I actually could do with is a 40mm solvent 30' (or 150') conversion bend. One of >> these << but with less of a bend. It would help enormously with my "clever" solution to the new toilet/sink/bath waste set up. I think the only source I've found is in grey with "pushfit" fitting. Jury is out on that at the moment. Edited October 5, 2015 by FastFreddy2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffer Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 The Wickes situation is interesting; I will watch out in case this display change occurs at any branch I visit.I agree that B&Q website navigation and accuracy of info is pretty hopeless; the Trade site is even worse (and you can't check stock)! I note that the 'conversion bend' you refer to, although clearly solvent weld, is desribed as 'Suitable for most standard size waste pipes (excluding solvent weld waste)'!!The price differences on the fitting you quote are unusual; the SF 'bulk' price (and B&Q Trade price) are both £3.68, so less than the SF single or B&Q price. TS does not list an equivalent. I cannot help with the solvent weld 'street elbow/spigot bend' you want; I think the unusual angle is the problem. But have you considered this (or an equivalent - other lengths and makes are available): http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/d20/Plastic+Solvent+Weld/sd2885/Magicflex+Solvent+Weld+Elbow/p20923 There is absolutely no reason why 40mm SW fittings from different makers should not be mixed - often a particular fitting will be usefully different in length etc and a better fit.Another source of a huge range of plumbing stuff is BES in Birmingham. A quick look there reveals nothing obviously helpful; this is an equivalent bend to what you tried: https://www.bes.co.uk/product/129~PL~2446~-Adjustable-Seal-Waste-Bends-.html You would find that it any good local plumber's merchant too.If the SW pipe you wish to align is not on show, you could tweak it slightly by gentle heating and bending. Best to do this before cutting to length, so any errors can be chopped off. Just apply heat from hot air gun (or even a gas flame) and introduce a slight bend so it aligns with nearest-match angled elbow (or whatever). The pipe will likely distort and discolour slightly but won't break or leak if care is taken. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 If the SW pipe you wish to align is not on show, you could tweak it slightly by gentle heating and bending. Best to do this before cutting to length, so any errors can be chopped off. Just apply heat from hot air gun (or even a gas flame) and introduce a slight bend so it aligns with nearest-match angled elbow (or whatever). The pipe will likely distort and discolour slightly but won't break or leak if care is taken.I have watched several You Tube video's showing how this can be done. Impressed, I had a go. Failed at every try. For a 'one off' the demands are too great. (I'm sorry to have to admit.)I think I may have enough 'wiggle room' to work out a solution with the bits I have already. Hopefully by sometime this afternoon, the bl**dy pipe will be replaced. On paper (or the marks on the wall) indicate it's possible with the bits I have. I cut some of the render away from the wall yesterday to increase my 'wiggle room', but I feel as though I'm about to get full-blown "bloke-flu" which us men known, can fell a full-sized bull elephant when it gets a grip. I had hoped to be able to report "job done" by this morning, but I returned home last night feeling rough and possibly should have gone straight to bed.If I can find some Lem-Sip in the pain-killing apothecary Mrs Freddy describes as the Medicine Draw, I'll be good-to-go quite quickly. At the moment, it doesn't just feel like I have fingers stuck up my nose, rather a whole hand. My muscles ache too, and I can't get warm. I must get this sorted though. (Trying to be brave. ) That Magiflex elbow was a good find though, thank you. Hopefully, I won't need to use it this time. I'll try to do some piccies later too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffer Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) I await further reports with bated breath, Freddy. Sorry that the pipe bending failed; I have done it successfully but it does require a little care.Just a thought - have you been breathing in active flux fumes whilst soldering? If so, that might be the cause of flu-like symptoms as the mucus lining of one's hooter can be irritated thusly. Been there, got the tee-shirt (and hanky) ... Edited October 6, 2015 by Puffer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Regarding fumes, only solvent for welding plastic pipe together. I managed to get a 45' bend in place, so the bath waste works, but I'm not overly happy with it. Everyone else in the world would consider the job done, but I have one last thing to try. To get the pipe run in behind what will be obsolete supply pipes (and will be removed in time) I had to split the 1.7m x 40mm bath waste run. I could have used solvent pipe and used a single run, but then it wouldn't be reusable, and when the new supply pipes are laid, the waste might need moving for a few hours. The thing I want to try is a 32' degree pushfit. It's actually made for this very job. Hopefully here in a couple of days.As the waste can't run alongside the wall, I have not been able to install brackets. In fact the pipe effectively runs into the wall, so I have had to source some stainless P clips for pipe supports. In the post ...The 32mm waste for the sink was easy. Getting the right height for the junction in the stack, less so. It would have helped if the dummy with the saw had cut the correct side of the tape, instead of cutting the wrong side and making the joiner 25mm shorter than "ideal". Took two hours of filing and recutting new 110mm pipe, but the sink waste is good with the junction in the soil pipe correctly positioned.The soil stack now ends in the loft, but needs more work. I have to remove half the stack to replace a mains feed I installed two years ago. Because I have the new stack pinned to an inner wall (not the joists) the pipe runs closer to the wall than it used to. Consequently, today, I had to learn to bend a full crossover. My bending kit was bought so I could put a nice radius on the occasional bit of 15mm copper pipe. I spent this afternoon making a suitable new pipe (about No.6 in the learning cycle) that follows the outline of the newly installed soil stack. Until the new copper pipe is installed, I can't finish finalising the position of the soil stack because the current straight pipe fouls the new stack. To my shame, we haven't had a working sink in the bathroom for some time. (A long time actually.)While doing this work, it became obvious I could now finally connect it. The monobloc tap has always been the barrier I have been reluctant to take on. I recently decided the easier solution to the lever controlled 'push' plug, was a pop-up waste. (Sometimes called a 'click-clack' waste.) Since none of them from the usual 'sheds' seem reliable, and the reliable solution looked like a £28 purchase, I went back to solving any installation problems with the parts I already had instead.The joint (hinge) for the 'push' mechanism as supplied, is an old and unreliable type. A new one is on order.The depth of the ceramic waste on the basin, makes the push-waste as supplied, borderline unusable. To get the actuating eye-rod even in the approximately correct position, has meant winding out the mounting thread too far. I have a small amount of plastic threaded bar ("see I told you 10 years ago that keeping that old number plate mounting screw would come in useful one day"), and I have some threaded joiner ordered too. I'm hoping to be able to make the eye rod about 10mm longer. At the weekend I sourced a 90 bend for the toilet, that has a longer neck than the one found in the 'sheds'. I'm hoping it will put the join for the toilet connector in something like the right place - the first time since the house was built.Some reading this might be thinking "he likes to make things hard for himself". Maybe I do. What I keep thinking is; if it was easy, someone else would be doing it, or would have done it. No plumber I know (2 plus 3 heating engineers) have "got time" for the work I want done. This type of work is very unattractive because it sucks time (money/profit) out of the job. So I'm working on my apprenticeship. Edited October 13, 2015 by FastFreddy2 Typo. Thanks Puffer. ;-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffer Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Progress then, Freddy - even if hampered by various physical constraints and other buggers' bodges. A few thoughts:1. If bath waste might need temporary removal, why not join with compression fittings until you finalise it, then use solvent-weld fittings? (Compression will fit all pipes - the special push-fit bend you ordered (source/detail?) may well not fit SW pipe.)2. 'Builders band' or similar perforated metal strip is handy for making things like pipe straps if they will not be on show: http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p60768?table=no Lots of other uses too! (I have some in aluminium which is very good.)3. Could not your 15mm copper pipe run behind the soil pipe (with a little bit of wall gouged out)? That would obviate making a full crossover as a slight set would suffice.4. The basin waste opened by a rod is a 'pop-up waste', as distinct from a 'click-clack' opened by finger pressure above (although the latter are sometimes also called pop-up). I agree that the former can give trouble. I have bought some very good click-clacks on eBay for around a fiver and had no trouble with them; no need to spend anything like £28. Indeed, the nicely machined and plated brass is quite a joy to behold (as is a lot of plumbers' brassware: maybe there should be a fetish website for it!). Good luck with the fiddly rod extension.5. Not sure if you are referring to the WC pan connector or the pipe into which it fits - presumably the former. If you really needed a long-neck, there must be something unusual about the pan outlet height or (more likely) the depth/position of the outlet pipe into which it fits, which would normally be flush with the floor or just below it.As to 'No plumber I know (2 plus 3 heating engineers) have "got time" for the wok I want done', I hope you can take time out to enjoy that Chinese meal you thoroughly deserve! (Best to keep off curry too for the moment.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Some quick notes as I should be undoing pipework rather than typing. 1. I have used compression for the join, which must be there for 'later' work to be completed. It also allows (though wasn't expected to allow) the alternative solution of a 'push-fit' pipe to be joined to a solvent weld pipe. (As you are aware.)2. I will see about buying some. The clips I ordered cost £6-15 for 5 delivered I think, which I am happy with. But that strapping material is a great tip. I would prefer the stainless, but would probably prefer the ali version even more, but for the anticipated cost. Ali bends easier, has less spring and cuts easier than stainless. I'm not overly keen on galvanised anything usually, but 'port in a storm' .... 3. The pipe is done, and had I not switched on the computer this morning, might be installed. Or I might still be drinking coffee. Making up a bit of pipe was challenging (f'ing frustrating actually) but was something I may need to know in the future. I have priced up some better quality bending gear to help next time. I will hopefully add some pictures later today.4. Just to clarify, the sink was supplied with a "push-up" waste, which I didn't/don't like because they look a bit 'Heath Robinson'. They do seem to be reliable, unlike my preferred choice of the click-clack/pop-up waste that is universally unreliable, especially in hard water areas. The £28 version seals on the flat upper face of the waste, rather than sitting internally where it can get gummed up with limescale and soap. I am trying to use the as supplied push-up system, with on order enhancements. If it doesn't work reliably, I will employ the £28 option with 5 year guarantee, or a less expensive one if you have a reliable make you can recommend through experience. In a previous property, a cheap but all-metal pop-up was removed by myself, using a very sharp drill ... 5. The close-coupled toilet has a straight outlet (rather than 'S' type) and it's quite high, compared to height of the original soil stack connection. I managed to connect them all up previously by using an offset connector, but even that sat at an angle. I have repositioned the soil stack, and used a couple of angles to get the original connection point back. I had the option to put a regular length 90' in for the soil opening height, but this would have left the connection point too low still, even though it might have been higher than before. I've sourced a long-neck 90' bend, which will put the soil connection on or about the right place. I can cut it down if necessary, but it means the soil opening will be closer the ideal height. Been a little while since I had a 'Chinese' ... Timely reminder/Freudian slip? I have edited the typo, referencing yourself for the help in the correction. I have replied in kind, elsewhere. Edited October 13, 2015 by FastFreddy2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffer Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 As to item 4, I bought click-clack wastes here a couple of years ago; no problems yet (in hard water areas): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-1-4-32-slotted-clicker-POP-UP-WASTE-suitable-for-basin-with-overflow-W3-/251046597330?hash=item3a738b12d2The seller has the same item on auction if you want a potentially cheaper punt. But I doubt there is much difference between these and others on eBay at £5 or often less; worth a look in case you have a more preferred type.Re item 2, Screwfix has a stainless band: http://www.screwfix.com/p/sabrefix-builders-band-stainless-steel-20mm-x-9-6m/59863Must go now - Rebuilding pillars at bottom of steps outside front entrance; good weather for mortar/rendering work etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Imagine what the 'other side' of a fitted kitchen might look like, in a 60 year old house. The dark unpainted, unfinished walls. Dirty floors. Cobwebs and unswept debris ....A water supply pipe sticks out the floor, practically untouched since the house was built. Attached to the pipe is an old junction with similarly aged pipework laid going toward a sink in that room, and also going upward toward a bathroom. Imagine the stopcocks there so old, one no longer functions, so a cowboy plumber doesn't replace it, he just puts another one on the same route. And the second one leaks. Imagine this behind the façade of a kitchen unit in the corner of the room, which hides the dirt and history of the house. Yesterday I got asked about changing a tap washer on a monobloc kitchen tap. Not a problem as long as I can find the isolation valves to stop the water. I hunted around and found a cut-out for a stop cock. I could feel the handle, so I turned it. As "luck" would have it, it turned off mains water for another part of the house. (A bit novel.)I found the isolation valves eventually, with their levers missing. Someone had used washing machine valves, and removed the levers. Duh! While staring at the underneath of the sink having noticed the limescale trail from what must be a leaking 'O' ring around the base of the taps, I could hear a drip ...... drip ....... drip coming from the other side of the cupboard I had my head inside. I had another look at the valve I'd just tightened, and couldn't see enough of it to draw a conclusion. Pulling out the lower decorative façade of the unit, I could see drips of water hitting the floor. Obviously I had disturbed something and a leak was the result. With no tools about me, I had to make do with a tray for the water and a promise of returning.On the journey home, I had visions of having to pull out the entire kitchen to get at the leaking valve.... Later that night, I discovered the likely cause, and thankfully easy/cheap fix. Leaking glands on older style stopcocks are common.Back today, I was tooled up. I had my multi-cutter to remove a panel, but found the rear of the cupboard was only held with panel pins. I damaged the panel removing it, but it gave me good access. The repair was quick, and at the time of writing, was still working. I can't express how fraught my evening was yesterday. Nor how grateful I am to the You Tube contributors. I'll sleep a lot better tonight. Next, the tap washers .... As the taps are in such poor shape and there's a leak underneath them, it makes sense to replace them as they have to be uninstalled anyway to fix the leak. £40 for replacements and hopefully another 10 years of trouble free use. Not sure this job's for me though ... The supply pipe route is ridiculous. Unimaginably poor. Yet would have been so easy to route logically and allow simple/easy maintenance. Nope, too sensible for someone. Apparently the installer moved away. Wonder why? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffer Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 An absolutely typical 'out-of-sight-behind-the-units-and-forget-it' plumbing run, Freddy! However, I have some sympathy with matey who added the top stopcock. The bottom one appears to be for screwed galvanised pipe and its removal might have threatened the integrity of the incoming pipe, which would then be a complete b*****r to dig out and replace. And I've met a situation where such an original cock (working or not) was so inaccessible that it was better to put another further on in a reachable position.I wonder what that green/yellow wire is bonding (if indeed it is connected)? If that is the incoming main below the stopcock, then the stopcock(s) should be 'bridged' by a wire connected to the pipes using two visible earthing clips, to preserve continuity if the stopcock(s) are removed. And there ought to be a draincock just above the (upper) stopcock to allow the pipe above to be emptied. You have the chance to tidy all this up ... You say the tap incomers were isolated using washing machine valves. That sounds weird, especially as the WM connections are 0.75" male - so what was attached to them to run on to tap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 The incoming mains (that the local water company couldn't find), looks to be copper, as unlikely as that might seem. It then separates with a 'T', running uphill to the water tanks (cold then hot) with the mains water going left to the kitchen sink. There is a mixture of old/new pipework winding around until eventually the taps are met.The homeowner has agreed the £38 replacement taps, and I will be buying them today. I may also find out if the isolating valves function with the deft use of some small adjustables. If the valves can't be made to function, they will need replacing. I might get some first hand experience of a freezing kit if that is the case. I too have some sympathy with the notion, "if it works, leave well enough alone", but my sympathy stops when the fitted kitchen was installed. At that point ANY real opportunity for further maintenance ended. The kitchen fitter should have priced in a plumber/builder to 'make good' the plumbing behind the units. As it stands now, any problems (and old fitting increase the chance of problems) will mean removing half the kitchen. This is such a big job, the water company who want to fit a meter in the house, have shied away from installing one. I remarked a few posts ago about the hot water in my bathroom being slow? Well it's a veritable torrent compared to the hot flow in this kitchen. Mindful the soil pipe shown has a direct route to the loft (and the hot water source possibly) why not install a better supply while it was easy? The lazy bathbuns didn't even sweep the floor or remove odd bits of wood leaning against the corner.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) The sink tap replacement project (as usual) isn't going very well. They don't build them like they used ..... thank goodness.I can get an isolation valve fitted in place of the obsolete washing machine branch on the 'hot' feed, probably by draining down the tank, or getting enough of a vacuum from partial draining to stop further flow .... Not sure about the cold feed stop-cock. I'll try loosening off the gland first, to see if it's been done up too tight. It might be overly tight to help prevent a leak, and effectively stop the handle rotating.... What doesn't help is its location. At arms length at the lower edge of a unit. From the little I know about 'check-valves' I'm pretty sure they are to stop back-flow into potable/drinking water. The location of the 'check valve' should be on the outlet side of the branch so no dirty water can travel back into the mains. That valve being where it is, dirty water can mix with mains water held between the taps and the check valve. I'm pretty sure there should be one somewhere for the washing machine too .... Just found this ..."One of the most common DIY tasks where you would have to consider all these requirements is when fitting an outside tap. This would be deemed to be a level 3 risk and meeting the regulations to prevent backflow from an outside tap can be achieved by fitting a double check valve before the hose union bib tap." I spent close to an hour gawping at this, wondering how to make it work .....When I used to install small networks, and small telephone systems, I used to follow a regular/written protocol for everything I did. Not so much that I had (or have) a need to do things right (though I do), but if things are done to a recognised standard as it were, when maintenance is required no-one has to work out what they are looking at. It would be wrong of me to assume only 'bodgers' worked on this water system, but I am reasonably sure the people that did, managed to do the least necessary, with no care for any further work that might be required. "Take the money and run" springs to mind ... eg. Why are there no pipe clips? Everything is hanging off the sink taps.... So:First job, isolation valves.Then: source and change (the very nice) supplied rigid tap tails, for flexi's. (Proximity problem with straight ones.) And: source new check valve. (grrrr.) More to follow. Edited October 18, 2015 by FastFreddy2 Quotation added. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffer Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Even more of a bugger's muddle all round, ain't it, Freddy? Nice photos though.I suspect the 'canted' pipe is thus to allow the formed bend; even if the vertical pipe was shortened by a good inch there would still need to be a slope up.If the vertical pipe above the check valve goes to a tap, I agree that the check valve is not doing its job properly. As you surmise, check valve (doubles now, I think - yours may not be) are there to stop backflow or siphoning of dirty water. This does not often happen but may arise (with unpleasant results) if a hose connected to a tap or shower can trail into bathwater or an outdoor puddle (with nasty garden chemicals in it?) - with the risk of drinking water being contaminated at another tap. In your case, it would be simpler to leave the checkvalve alone and fit a new outside bibtap incorporating an integral double check valve, e.g. http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p54792?table=no (I have a feeling that these taps are no longer accepted by some water authorities, who insist on an 'in line' double check valve instead. However, they are quite effective - and bye-law inspectors are rarely if ever found snooping about these days.)Washing machines etc invariably have an integral check valve so do not need another in the external feed. But WM valves with an integral valve are available for them wot likes 'belt and braces': http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p96215?table=no Rather than fitting flexi tails and isol valves to the new taps (unless limited room for manipulation makes that essential), one dodge is to use a 15mm-0.5" flexi with the compression end fitted to the (shortened) copper tap tail and the female threaded end fitted direct to the isol valve in place of its union nut. Or do it in reverse, with valve upstream of flexi., which may well allow flexi to poke through back panel, and rest of supply pipe is therefore hiddden away. Either is neat and saves another joint and bit of pipe. And, if water pressure is a problem, use full bore flexis and valves if possible; it can make a difference.Your NVQ in domestic installation work draws ever nearer ...! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Your NVQ in domestic installation work draws ever nearer ...!I am finding as that 'qualification' draws ever closer, my hair line seems to be disappearing at a like-for-like rate. And I'm starting to think I should be sub-contracting out the sourcing for my plumbing parts list .... While I appreciate the tips on the tap connections, they are a no-go. I suspect the original taps were fitted up immediately prior to the sink installation, (many moons ago) and before the waste was added. The current tail for the hot supply is hard against the side of the left-hand unit - and I mean 'hard'. The cold tail is touching the hot. I did look at taking out the sink, but decided against as it seemed unlikely it would come out undamaged. "Flexi's" are the way to go given the room.The slightly frustrating thing about the outside tap .... I'm fairly sure it doesn't get used, but suggesting £50/£70's worth of plumbing work should be undone -probably- wouldn't be well received...Today I bought Hep2O M12 flexi 'tails' with push-fit connections for the supplies. I opted for the push fit because I read that sometimes, the hot/cold mix can be less disproportionate in a mono, if the supplies are reversed. The easy dismounting system makes that an easy option. Also, the makers claim these tails have a 10mm bore.Spent around £9 in Toolstation on 3 valves. 1 x double-check, 1 x full bore isolation vale (for weak hot supply) and 1 x Mini Lever quarter turn ball valve, to replace the nasty stop-cock. I'm hoping the 'mini' is shorter than the stop-cock, and will be less intrusive anyway. Since the monobloc retaining bolt is up inside a nasty little cramped recess, I also treated myself to a set of long box spanners. The retaining plate on the worn out taps is very rusty. I'm hoping the long nut will still loosen, or the threaded stud will wind out. I'm abdicating from involving myself in anything to do with the washing machine supply. "Apparently", what looks like a perfectly serviceable washing machine is to be replaced. It seems to me the reason that pipe could be canted, is that the previous washing machine supplier added a junction without shortening any pipe. That being the case, that canted pipe wants me to leave it 'well alone', in case I disturb the compression joint at the stop-cock. I'll know more when I start "fixing" the new taps. I might just stop off at Toolstation and get one of those WM non-return valves though, just in case. Edited October 19, 2015 by FastFreddy2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffer Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Yes, Freddy - it is either remaining hairline or savings that is in inverse proportion to DIY experience amassed.The Hep2O flexis are a good idea in your situation. As you say, flow might improve with reversal of feeds - but won't C and H then be reversed at tap levers and maybe confusing to occupant? The box spanners are very helpful - I wouldn't be without mine when lying on my back under a sink! (I have Monument set bought years ago - a little cheaper currently at TS than yours and seemingly identical.) The fixing stud (and maybe nut) usually brass, so should not corrode and stick; if it shears (unlikely) no harm done. I expect the condemned taps are solid brass and probably worth a couple of quid in scrap.I wouldn't worry about the canted pipe - it does its job, cant or not, and is out of sight. But of course you KNOW it is there! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I wouldn't worry about the canted pipe - it does its job, cant or not, and is out of sight. But of course you KNOW it is there!And likely to cause sleepless nights .... Nope, I'm not going to 'uncant' it, but I like that W/M valve you pointed me at, and utilising one might prevent the next washing machine installer doing something I wouldn't like them to do .... I know for sure, the current fitting does not have and directional flow restriction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 Later today (Wednesday) is "P" day, where I get to get my plumbing mettle.I'm pretty certain it'll be a disaster one way or the other, but needs must. The taps need changing, and I have all the bits so it's gonna happen one way or the other. I'd have preferred to take the challenge after a good nights sleep, but a large panel of hard-board flooring needed some rework in readiness for the flooring man to do his bit tomorrow at the refurb' property I'm helping with. The landlord also missed an ammonia type live (still wet) stain, around the lower edge of the toilet. I started the repair at 12.30am, having spent the previous half hour cutting out pipe access on a panel for the nearly installed toilet sink ... If it was easy, someone else would be doing it ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyheels Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 I am hugely impressed at your DIY skills. I am a good bicycle mechanic but that's as far as my handy man skills go. I would not even begin to contemplate tackling such a job as you describe, and if I was reckless and foolish enough to try I would end up with a first-rate calamity on my hands. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffer Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 Just as I thought I could take it easy (apart from fixing a minor leak under younger son's sink) and confine myself to further armchair pontification on Freddy's current 'buggers muddle', my good friend with some buy-to-lets has asked for my hands-on input to install (with his help) a complete gas CH system at one of his flats. Probably 5 days' work starting around 2 Nov. I am happy enough to oblige - I owe him about 10 days after all he did to help me with my seaside flat refurb - but a rest would have been nice! (As he owns 'flats', I won't be working there in 'heels'.)As to bicycles, I well remember apologising to my elder son (then aged about 10 and a keen footballer) that I had no interest or ability whatsoever in sport, so could not help him thus. He smiled at me and said, touchingly, 'No - but you can mend my bike, Dad!' Our respective roles have remained much the same, some 25 years on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyheels Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 That's a nice story about the bicycle and your son. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) So .....The mains stopcock was persuaded to work after the gland was loosened, with a little to-ing and fro-ing with the handle. It looked like it developed a leak (as with the upstairs routed pipework stop-cock before) but tighteneing the gland a little seemes to have cured this.Every joint I separated was held together "with lashings" of plumbers mait. Where I had planned/expected to re-use compression joints, they were too mucky (without hours of cleaning) to use after all. Consequently the shape of the finished pipework didn't quite resemble the expected finished routes. As a passing remark, there were NO working check valves anywhere. Even the one I thought to a check valve had a straight-though bore, that might have been a functional internal isolation valve some time ago. (Now 'frozen'.) The f'ing worn out monobloc taps, didn't want to leave. I snapped the tommy bar on the deep box spanner (not that it was deep enough anyway) trying to undo the nut on the stud retainer. I didn't have either with me, but the hole I had to work inside was too small to get a grinder or multi-tool inside ... For a short while, it really looked like I was going to have to cut the taps off the top of the sink ...Looking at the problem, I noticed there was an inch gap at the top of the partition between the sink unit, and the bay for the washing machine next to it. If I could get the washing machine out, I might be able to get a spanner in from the side. There was/is about 5mm of space either side of the machine, and I'm being optimistic with that number.... The machine didn't have wheels anyway, only adjustable legs. The floor hadn't been made to the back of the kitchen wall, only to around 6 inches from the front of the washing machine. Beyond that was concrete, loose tiles, and a dip in the floor level. Only shear desperation gave me the patience to wiggle/lift/tilt/wiggle/lift/tilt that machine out of it's hole. Eventually, I had access to the nut.Lot of good it did me initially... I got an adjustable on it, but I had to sit inside the suitcase sized crevice to hold/turn the tool, and the taps just rotated as I turned the spanner. I asked for help, and the lady of the house tried, but a six year old with good wrists would have been more use sadly. As luck would have it I also brought with me, a hacksaw blade with a handle. Looks like this:It wasn't going to be easy, but the final solution was to saw off the stud through the nut.Took around 15 minutes (several rests involved) ... but it worked. Once the mains 'manifold' type sub-assembly was completed, reassembly was fairly straight forward. Getting the right bits attached in the right order was tricky, but the ease of connection of the taps more than made up for it. At the time of writing, The mono is still prone to rotating. I tried tightening the clamp on the mono stud, but that only helped to push the rubber cushion out from under the clamp. The mono will come out quite easily now and the pipes disconnect REALLY easily, so I'm currently working on a Plan B. I don't know why these things don't come with some sort of 'centering' collar(s). The inside diameter of the anti-rotation ring/seal is exactly the same size as the mounting hole in the sink - which can't be seen when the taps are mounted. (I did draw guide lines, but they weren't very useful.) In fact I'm pretty sure I fell asleep thinking about what a stainless machined collar should look like. And while I'm at it (ranting) why a fixing stud off centre, and why a horse shoe shaped clamp?The finished (-ish) job. The washing machine has a non-return valve, the outside water a double check valve and new ¼ turn isolation valve. There's also an isolation valve in sight and accessible (as opposed to the stop-cock sitting hidden/behind the corner unit), for turning off the three outlets in case work needs to be carried out on the 'manifold'. The canted pipe is still canted .... But currently resting on a block of wood. I usually use plastic clamps, but both of the claps on the hot pipe came loose fairly quickly, and the cold pipework followed a vertical crack up the back wall. I may glue/stick/bond a chunk of wood to the back wall, and clamp the pipework to that, in a week or so. Epilogue.The home owner is in for some bad/expensive news. I noticed while repairing the silicone run on the tiled splashback, that water has gotten underneath the laminate on the worktop, where the sink wasn't completely siliconed into position. That or the stainless sink top has deformed over time. Anyway, the laminate has a small crack in it now, and ripples around one corner of the sink. Within a year, the worktops will need replacing. Edited October 23, 2015 by FastFreddy2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffer Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) Some good neat progress the, Freddy, albeit with some physical problems to overcome. I agree with you about the stupid way that sink-top taps are supposed to be mounted; the lack of a locating gizmo and the frequently useless horseshoe washer (which distorts readily) does nobody any favours.I don't think your old compression joints were assembled using 'Plumbers' Mate' (at least I hope not - it is not for pressure pipes). I suspect it was Boss White or similar compond which sets (more or less) and can indeed be tricky to remove. These days, I prefer a silicone pipe/leak sealing compound out of a tube; there are several makes - the cheapest should be fine but I have yet to try this one: http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p40236?table=noI invariably re-use old compression fittings (usually requiring new olives) but soak them in descaling fluid for a few hours which cleans off most of the gunk and softens any compound, with a wire brush doing the rest. My descaler is ochre crystals made by Fernox and bought in a bulk tub some years ago. I make up a strong solution in an old poly tub and keep it handy, immersing parts, inc copper fittings and pipe ends, as they get removed. It remains sufficiently potent for months.Just to demonstrate that I don't just waffle on about theory, here is a pic of the (incomplete) combi set-up at my seaside bolthole (a first-floor flat above a shop), taken mid-2013. The flue is not yet in place; it leaves the top of the boiler (ProCombi Exclusive 30) thru an elbow and runs horizontally (via a 45 degree elbow) through the side wall. The gas connections and overflow have yet to be made and the condensate outlet will be connected to a pump to go on the small shelf at left - this will discharge via plastic tube underfloor to the soil pipe about 3m away to the right. As the lobby in which the boiler is situated is about 5" lower than the main part of the flat, it was very convenient to take all the pipework (CH and HW) into the void under the main floor by cutting into the dividing wall just above the lobby floor. Likewise, the CW supply (grey vert pipe, left of boiler) and gas come together into the lobby via a downward slanting hole from the loft area on the other side of the wall - I forgot to sleeve the gas pipe but it didn't matter as the hole is quite large and well clear of both pipes.The electrolytic scale remover had to be canted as shown to get its length between CW feed and boiler connections. The brass object on the CH Return is a Spirovent dirt collector (filter). The horizontal white plastic pipe at left just under the window is taking CW to an outside tap; there is a double check valve and a stopcock inside the lobby (out of sight). I later moved this pipe down to a more useful and less conspicuous level behind the radiator. The airing cupboard in which the boiler now resides was built around it later, with shelves to the right and the 18" door hung directly in front of the boiler from the frame seen projecting from the wall.When the boiler and gas supply were tested and commissioned (by a qualified and obliging friend), it was the hottest day of July 2013! We sweltered for a couple of hours with rads all belting out heat - but all was well and I got my certificate (and Crackerjack pencil).(Ignore the date on the pic below; camera not set correctly.) Edited October 23, 2015 by Puffer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Just to demonstrate that I don't just waffle on about theory, here is a pic of the (incomplete) combi set-up at my seaside bolthole (a first-floor flat above a shop), taken mid-2013. The flue is not yet in place; it leaves the top of the boiler (ProCombi Exclusive 30) thru an elbow and runs horizontally (via a 45 degree elbow) through the side wall. Before I respond further, I'm going to have to have lie down. I am beyond shocked! Catatonic possibly.I may need to have an alcoholic drink, for medicinal purposes, of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFreddy2 Posted October 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I don't think your old compression joints were assembled using 'Plumbers' Mate' (at least I hope not - it is not for pressure pipes). I suspect it was Boss White or similar compond which sets (more or less) and can indeed be tricky to remove. These days, I prefer a silicone pipe/leak sealing compound out of a tube; there are several makes - the cheapest should be fine but I have yet to try this one: http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p40236?table=noI invariably re-use old compression fittings (usually requiring new olives) but soak them in descaling fluid for a few hours which cleans off most of the gunk and softens any compound, with a wire brush doing the rest. My descaler is ochre crystals made by Fernox and bought in a bulk tub some years ago. I make up a strong solution in an old poly tub and keep it handy, immersing parts, inc copper fittings and pipe ends, as they get removed. It remains sufficiently potent for months. I hope it wasn't Boss White, as these junctions also supplied the drinking water, and the product blurb suggests it isn't suitable. I'm sure it was Plumbers Mait. It was used inside the joints around the copper pipe, around the olives, and on all the threads. I did start to clean one of the fittings and then realised soldering a joint would be much quicker. While the PM might not be suitable for pressure joints, I would expect the compression joint takes care of 99.99% of the pressure, with several inches of PM (length of the thread) doing enough to counter the 0.01 potential that might otherwise cause the joint to weep.I've not heard of ochre crystals before. I have some citric acid that I think pretty much does the same job? That link for the jointing compund is useful, and I might give it a go. Historically I've used Fernox LS-X which I've found quite reliable if a tad pricey. Plumbers don't like it (they tell me) because it sets. That's half the reason I do like it. A 'plugged leak' stays plugged. I've a morbid fear - sometimes justified - of weeping compression joints. I've watched plumbers do them up with what looked like 60ft/lbs torque, and I have been amazed the threads were not stripped. I've started doing them up a bit tighter, (nothing like 60ft/lbs) but I still worry. Recently I had 3 or 4 goes at tightening a joint before it stopped weeping. I began to wonder how close to that 60ft/lbs I got with that particular joint ....Lastly, and for the record, I don't (and I doubt others would) think of you as a 'waffler'. While I have not been able to benefit from every bit of your practical advise, I've used what I can and I'm pleased for your support. For which I thank you. I don't know if you are still in a good place to chide me about my Americanisms though .... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffer Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I will skirt round the alleged Americanisms, Freddy. I have no problems with your 'gotten' (an old English word which remains valid) and can overlook 'advise' (noun), for example. And, if you disliked my use of 'thru', I merely claim it as a convenient abbreviation, regardless of its origin.Boss White used to be perfectly acceptable on potable water joints (as did lead/tin solder) and I don't get excited by seeing either still in existence, although lead-free solder and harmless jointing compounds are now the norm for such purposes. The Fernox LS-X is fine but several (usually cheaper) equivalents are just as good, but I haven't yet tried the stuff from TS. I'm not aware that plumbers don't like them; you and I do, for the same good reason that they work! As to compression torque, the main problem if overdone is that the tube can be distorted and that can start a leak; half a turn beyond hand-tight should be enough, assuming that (i) fitting, pipe and olive are not damaged/distorted; (ii) a little compound is smeared around the olive at least.I think I misled you about the descaling crystals; it is the colour that is 'ochre' (almost yellow). The compound is essentially sulphamic acid, relatively non-toxic but not to be trifled with. It turns most brass fairly pink, probably because it attacks the zinc rather than the copper. Citric acid is altogether milder but does the job reasonably well, if more slowly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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