Keen Diy'ers?

[FastFreddy2]

Taps in, and I didn't need the Fix'a'Tap kit as urgently as I thought, so the kit will be posted.

 

Once I decided to "give-it-a-go" without the special kit, it all went together quite quickly.

 

I had bought the flexible connectors on the Saturday, so I had just about everything I needed, and some. 

 

The hot side was to be completed first. This already had the in-line isolator, so had the potential to be easier. Both taps were fitted before any further work was done. Neither seemed keen to rotate (after all) and as the taps were easier to turn on/off anyway, that kit may never be needed.

 

 

Until 2 years ago I had not been a fan of flexible connectors, often choosing to make the pipe route in copper, often in frustration circumstances. Then I found these hoses were used for brake systems on cars, and had a change of heart. One of my better plumbing decisions, if for no better reason than the end connections seem to need so much less torque to make them watertight? And while some would say it isn't best practice, the seal washers seem to be reusable too.

 

 

The hot water supply isn't direct, and I wanted the maximum flow without the grief of making a copper route, though I had all the bits to make it. I trial fitted a copper extension from the isolator, and loosely connected the 13mm bore 'push-fit' flexible tap connector. This item is circa 3 times the price of the 10mm bore alternative, so it was quite a luxury. My first attempt had the extension cut too short, because I hadn't realised how much of the copper pipe went into the connector. Fortunately this 'push-fit' version didn't need a special tool to release the pipe, and the second attempt was better.

 

 

Mindful how conservative I am with plumbing, using 'push-fit' technology is like using a calculator in place of pen and paper.....

 

I had hoped to avoid using an separate inline connector and use a flexi with it's own valve as I could reuse this later on, but I had scored the 'mains' pipe slightly when freeing it from one of the units shelves, so had to cut the pipe shorter than planned. I would never take chances with mains pressure, especially ours as it seems to be so good.

 

 

Both pipes connected and everything done up tight, it was time to let water flow. Which it did.

 

3 hours later and no sign of leaks, I'm going to say it's completed. (Yay!) 

 

 

 

 

[Puffer]

I’m glad to hear your sink tap replacement went OK, Freddy.

 

I really don’t know why taps in general have round flanges to fit in (usually) round basin/sink holes, when a square on both (to a standard size) would be much more logical.   And the 4-lug variety – if you have it – often doesn’t help either; it can’t stop rotation in a round hole.  I’ve not tried the Fix-a-Tap kit but it looks interesting – although at a cost which should be unnecessary.  

 

Another potential solution (at least with a steel sink top) is to fit the taps through a piece of rigid material (e.g. 6mm ply) underneath (which is highly desirable anyway as a stiffener – as you appear to recognise), drilled to be a tight fit on the thread – or given a square hole if there are lugs.   Old-time plumbers often set the taps in glazier’s putty, which when set hard would hold the tap rigid.   The modern equivalent (Plumbers’ Mate) or a good squirt of silicone can also help but is really too pliable.   A cheapo 'top hat' plastic washer also helps to spread the load and help things tighten up, with the further advantage that it brings the backnut further away from the underside of the sink and thus easier to get the wrench on it.

 

As to wrenches, one certainly needs a couple of special types for any under-sink work.   The rigid cast iron one can be easier to use than the reversible pattern you pictured (which just loves to slip off the nuts) - but both have a tendency to fall into one's face when working upside down with a tired arm!

 

I agree that anything which restricts the bore on a low pressure supply is better avoided, although for the short distance through a flexi connector it should make little difference – and your isolating valve is already a narrow bore.   I doubt you gained any real advantage using a full-bore hose.   Many taps (usually monobloc) come with copper tails that start as 10mm or 12mm copper and taper to 15mm, thus giving a built-in restriction.   I usually connect these (shortened as necessary) with a normal flexi tap connector in reverse, i.e. compression end to the copper tail and 0.5” threaded connector onto the top of a standard isolating valve (replacing the union nut and olive).   Done this many times with no problems.

[FastFreddy2]

The perceived advantage of the slightly larger bore on the 'push-fit' connector was flow-rate. I'd hoped that with a fully open tap, the venturi effect of the isolator would allow the fluid to speed up as it went through and despite slowing down on the other side, the overall flow-rate would be maintained. As it turned out, even with the new tap opened only slightly, the flowrate is so great water easily splashes back off the bottom of the sink all over the place. The 15mm pipe shown, is fed by a 22mm pipe some 18 inches below, and seems to have quite a head on it. 

 

I'm not too bothered about the extra cost really. I needed to trial a push fit, and this has worked out better than expected. Read the next episode to find out how comparatively simple this job proved to be .....

 

 

The 'tap rotation' thing seems to be a recurring bugbear of plumbers. Over the last 4 or 5 days I've read pages and pages on forums about this. Seems that if the taps (especially mono's) are not bonded to the worktop/sink/bath, a little movement is possible. Sometimes, the to/fro movement created when using the taps can lead to connecting nuts undoing enough to produce a 'drip' grade leak. Second (free) visit by the plumber is always unwelcome - as it's a loss making visit.

 

The main suggestion, is to do up the tap(s) tight enough so any movement isn't possible. As it turned out, that's what I did. The upper seal washers are made of a non-slipping material that prevents movement when they are compressed - so far anyway. However, this rotation problem has been around a long time. I've read numerous reports of plumbers having to cut taps off sinks (for example) where Plumbers Mait has been used to ensure they never rotated, which they didn't - but they couldn't be removed either. The Fix'a'Tap seems like a good idea, and at £5 a pair delivered, not overly expensive. There's also a similar/cheaper version from Monument, called "Stikfast", at £4-29 for 5 delivered. Either one, cheap insurance?

Edited May 7, 2015 by FastFreddy2

[FastFreddy2]

Part II.

 

I had replaced the bath taps (along with the bath) what is possibly, almost 2 years ago. I originally used a cheap product because the lady of the house and myself couldn't agree on a style, so something that was always going to get replaced was required. It cost £40 delivered. While we weren't robbed, it probably wasn't even worth £40! It became unreliable very quickly.

 

More recently, it had been difficult to turn off. With hindsight it could have been cured, but I had grown to hate mono-switches, so it was going to be replaced.

 

These show leaks, indicated by limescale deposits. 

Second picture shows wear to the lever base. Lever was loose.

 

A replacement was arranged and delivered. This time around Mrs Freddy was more interested in a working tap, than a pretty one, so I got to choose. As it turned out, it was an agreeable choice.   

 

 

Getting the old unit off, wasn't much of a problem, as the four nuts involved weren't particularly tight. The nuisance really, was having to take out the over-flow come plug actuator to get at the rear tap connector. The only nut that needed any effort was the closest flanged nut on the tap unit. All the other three were easy. The shocker for me, was that my basin wrench didn't fit the nuts.

 

 

In fact the only way I could undo the tight nut, was to pack out the gap with a flat bladed screwdriver. I couldn't at the time, and days later still can't remember how I get them tight enough to be leak free on the initial installation.....  

 

All surfaces were cleaned and dried. The new unit was installed in the bath and the flanged nuts hand tightened. It looked great! Neater and less bulky. I was very pleased.....

 

When it came to tightening the flanged backnuts, "the problem" became apparent. My tool (and every one like it) expects a 1 1/4" (32mm) across flats (AF) sized nut. The newer range of nuts I had to hand were 1 3/16" (30mm) with one of the pair actually being closer to 29mm.

 

 

As luck would have it, I found two odd flanged nuts I must have removed from some old installation(s), and had (wisely) retained them. After a clean up, these were duly done up using the larger end of my basin spanner.    

 

The flexi connections weren't so straight forward. As they had rounded corners, the wrench just rotated around the nut completely.

 

 

I can't express how frustrating this event was. Firstly because I didn't know at the time what the answer was, and worse, I had obviously found a solution that I couldn't now recall. 

 

It would be 24hrs and a lot of running around over a bank holiday before I knew what the answer was, and what I could do in the absence of that answer.

 

The answer was/is a flare crowfoot wrench with 3/8th or 1/2" drive. (Depending on make.)

 

 

As it wasn't available, I had to improvise. I taped an allen key into my wrench, which stayed there long enough to pack out the gap in the wrench and allow me to do up the two nuts. I still can't believe this situation exists, but it does. Even so, the taps are now fitted and working.

 

Flow is better, and the tap on/off function is wonderful. And no dripping tap either.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2015 by FastFreddy2

[FastFreddy2]

Weeeellllll.......

 

I bought a combi boiler, but not the Main one as suggested. 

 

Not sure why I started looking at them, (possibly looking at boiler related threads on DIY type forums) but settled for an Ideal Logic Plus 30kw. version. My heating engineer mate said I didn't need a 30kw, and a 24kw would suffice, but the 30kw gave a marginally better heated water flow on the domestic HW side. The difference between the Logic and the Logic + is that the "Plus" comes with a seven year warranty, where the standard boiler comes with a 2 year makers warranty. The price difference wasn't great, about £120 which I think is good value for an additional 5 years of parts and labour peace-of-mind.

 

The price with flue should have been £800, but I got a voucher for 10% discount making the 'buy' price £720 delivered with flue. The flue is the kicker and can sometimes cost stupid money (IMO) like £80 .... 

 

I might get a couple of quid for my old system boiler when it comes off the wall, as it looks brand new.

 

 

All I need now, is to get it fitted! 

[Puffer]

I don't know who suggested a Main boiler, Freddy, but it wasn't me.   I did suggest the Pro Combi Exclusive 30, which is effectively a re-badged Ideal Logic.   But your Logic+ sounds a good deal; the 7 year guarantee is helpful - although I think you must have an annual service (scarcely necessary) to continue to qualify - do check - and installation must be by 31.12.15.   Good luck with it anyway.   Some Ideal boilers (such as Isar) have a poor reputation - as many who had them under the free/subsidised 'Warmfront' scheme have found out - but the Logic and its clones appear to be in a different league.

 

I agree about flue prices, when not included with the boiler.   But they (and extensions/fittings if needed) can often be picked up cheaply on eBay.

 

Used boilers are a mixed blessing as they can deteriorate when not used and before re-installation.   But they can be sold (or at worst sold for scrap).   What make/model/age is yours - not that I'm after one?

 

 

[FastFreddy2]

I don't know who suggested a Main boiler, Freddy, but it wasn't me.  

 

My mistake, I should have checked ...... 

 

I remembered it being a re-badged quality boiler, and for some reason I had it in mind it was a "Main". Duh! 

 

 

It looks like I bought the right one, anyway, so not all bad. 

 

I bought the 30kw version because it was pennies more expensive than the recommended 24kw version, but the DHW output was notably higher if you have the mains flowrate/pressure, and we have. While I'm more of a bath person, Mrs Freddy is very much a shower person. If a boiler change is being justified somewhat on the strength of a good shower, I decided to get what I could out of the budget. That said, ANY mains shower will be more powerful than the trickle she has to manage with at the moment. 

 

Only little niggle about the 30kw version (gas fitter has told me today) is the pipework leading away from the gas meter needs to be 28mm because of the draw from a 30kw over (say) a 24kw boiler. While new supply pipework was always going to be the order of the day due to an 'executive' decision being made to re-site the boiler, "the budget" is less happy that 28mm has to be used. What is more weird about it, is that I have seen modern gas supplies fitted to homes using 15mm copper pipe running along exterior brickwork. Don't yet understand why 28mm might be needed the other side of the meter? There was some mention of gas/air pre-mixing prior to the burner, but time didn't allow for a full explanation....

 

 

The current boiler is a Worcester/Bosch Greenstar 18Ri system boiler around 6 years old come October. I think it has an 18/19kw output. Our home needs less than 10kw to heat, so plenty big enough for us. It's supposed to heat a three bed house with one bathroom. I'm probably tempting fate by saying it hasn't skipped a beat while we've used it.   

 

In the very unlikely event I might time it right, a prospective buyer could see the boiler working before they removed it. Obviously, I'd have the payment for it before it was touched.    The plumber (who introduced me to his mate the gas fella) has had a look and said it's worth something, though no money was mentioned. It, and the pump, could be had for £100 (in my mind) as I have no use for it at all. That said, even as spare parts I would hope it's worth £100, but I have no idea. I did have a little look on the auction site some time ago at what sort of money used boiler can go for, but it was no use really. 

 

Location and demand in the sellers location seemed to make an enormous difference in bids and bidding. Selling in a large city got better money than the middle of no-where as travelling/transportation costs are a barrier. Bottom line is, any money for the old one, is going to be a bonus. 

 

 

If it wasn't for the fact we have rotten pipework in difficult to replace locations, or the distance the current HW tank is from the new kitchen sink location, the boiler wouldn't be getting replaced. But pipework (some rotten), storage tank condition (old), storage tank location (as far away from the new kitchen sink as it's possible to get and still be in the house) all make for a fairly troublesome situation. It would (on balance) be more expensive to keep the old system and make it safe (eg water leak free) than completely replacement it with a brand new combi, given I will be doing the great bulk of the work (I now know ). Even paying a plumber, it would still be cheaper to replace rather than refurb the old system pipework and storage tank.

 

The REALLY attractive thing about the combi (other than saving money as we'll only heat water we need to use) is the lack of a cold water storage tank. I have been in at least 3 houses like ours (possibly four), and every one has the same cracked ceiling in the same place for the same reason. The cold water storage tank is directly above the bathroom. The emptying/refilling cycle seems to have put (or does put) a lot a creep stress on the ceiling plasterwork. I have yet to see a bathroom ceiling in this house style, without a crack or cracks in it. I have a solution, but that tank being absent will not only remove the cause, but make the permanent remedy significantly easier. It'll also make installing the new bathroom extractor, significantly easier too.   As an aside, the light tube I want to install at some stage (that Mrs Freddy DOESN'T want at some stage) will be easier to install if there is no water tank blocking the tube pathway.   

[Puffer]

Interesting points, Freddy.   A brief response:

 

1.   I entirely agree with 30kW to get the improved flow rate at minimal extra cost.   More important for bath (my preference too) than shower, considering time taken to fill a bath and volume of water used.

 

2.   I too was advised to run gas supply from meter in 28mm to boiler (about 40' run) if possible, bearing in mind that supply to hob branches about halfway.   In fact, I continued beyond the branch in 22mm and of course the boiler itself has a 15mm connection (perverse?).   No pressure problems experienced.   I have never seen newbuild outside pipework in less than 28mm, but I suppose smaller may be OK depending on what is being run.   And the meter includes a regulator which does reduce the pressure somewhat so needs the larger onward pipe.

 

3.   The WB boiler should certainly be worth something and you may be pleasantly surprised if you eBay it.   I have seen s/h boilers go for surprisingly high prices.   One problem is that, unless Sedbuk A rated (is it?), it is not now strictly lawful to fit it - but who would know?

 

4.   God luck with the plumbing - especially with the condensate.   Have you decided how/where to run that yet? 

 

5.   I have an indirect pumped system at home, with CW cistern and HW cylinder.   As it is a solid Victorian house, the potential for cracked ceilings does not really arise for me.   My CW cistern (50 gallons) is on a solid platform a couple of feet above the ceiling joists, but they and the supporting legs are all pretty solid (min 4 x 2) so the weight (or variation in it) has little or no effect.   Mind you - the old round cistern I replaced was simply seated on the joists and had a nicely corrugated bottom; amazing that it never gave way.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Puffer

[FastFreddy2]

Interesting points, Freddy.   A brief response:

 

1.   I entirely agree with 30kW to get the improved flow rate at minimal extra cost.   More important for bath (my preference too) than shower, considering time taken to fill a bath and volume of water used.

 

As old as we likely are, I would say either of us could pee faster than the hot water flows at the moments....   

 

2.   I too was advised to run gas supply from meter in 28mm to boiler (about 40' run) if possible, bearing in mind that supply to hob branches about halfway.   In fact, I continued beyond the branch in 22mm and of course the boiler itself has a 15mm connection (perverse?).   No pressure problems experienced.   I have never seen newbuild outside pipework in less than 28mm, but I suppose smaller may be OK depending on what is being run.   And the meter includes a regulator which does reduce the pressure somewhat so needs the larger onward pipe.

 

I may have chosen a poor phrase in; "modern gas supplies fitted to homes" if it seemed I eluded to new builds. I referred to new (replacement) pipework that been upgraded from cast black iron  pipes that may have come to their 'end of life'. A neighbour, who was living in a council house had a new supply run up an outside wall in 15mm (so quite fragile) with a public footpath running right next to that wall. Literally, a careless pedestrian could have damaged the pipework. My neighbour, wisely in my opinion, boxed the pipework to prevent such a situation. I know I have seen it somewhere else, and from that had thought it was possibly more typical than it might be. The 28mm seems to me to be the complete opposite end of the spectrum. ALL of my current gas copper pipework is in 22mm. The User Destructions for the 12i or 15i version of the Greenstar says 15mm is acceptable (with a caveat I can't recall - that maybe the length of the supply pipe). 

 

3.   The WB boiler should certainly be worth something and you may be pleasantly surprised if you eBay it.   I have seen s/h boilers go for surprisingly high prices.   One problem is that, unless Sedbuk A rated (is it?), it is not now strictly lawful to fit it - but who would know?

 

The current version of this model comes A rated, so it might take some serious looking into to find out if an older version of the same model wasn't, and someone would need to have a reason to make those enquiries anyway. I had in mind 'spares' purchase where a broken WB boiler could use bits from my old one, or a broken one of these would have a straight replacement with my working version on a like-for-like basis.

 

4.   God luck with the plumbing - especially with the condensate.   Have you decided how/where to run that yet? 

 

There is a soil pipe will be not more than 600mm from where the new boiler is going.   That's not a coincidence. 

 

5.   I have an indirect pumped system at home, with CW cistern and HW cylinder.   As it is a solid Victorian house, the potential for cracked ceilings does not really arise for me.   My CW cistern (50 gallons) is on a solid platform a couple of feet above the ceiling joists, but they and the supporting legs are all pretty solid (min 4 x 2) so the weight (or variation in it) has little or no effect.   Mind you - the old round cistern I replaced was simply seated on the joists and had a nicely corrugated bottom; amazing that it never gave way.

 

A property I bought, only my second, had a similar problem with the cold storage tank. I'd bought the place as a doer-upper. There was no bathroom fitments at all, very little left of the ceiling underneath where the kitchen was. All possibly due to upper floor flooding. When it came to go into the loft, for the first time some months after purchase, I found the 50 gallon lid-less tank 2/3rds on a platform across the joists. The other unsupported third, had sunk to the point where the water level was frighteningly close to the upper edge of the dropped/drooping section of the tank. Once emptied, the platform was moved to a better place, and the tank refilled. I have no idea how long that situation had existed, nor why it was like it was. 

 

 

If I had my way, I might pay someone else to be doing the work, there are funds for it. However, my experience suggests for every conscientious tradesman providing a good good at realistic money, there's 50-100 who don't want to do anything bigger than change a tap or 'cowboys' who do less than they should knowing the customer won't know.

 

The chap who installed our current boiler, put it in the garage, and his performance is typical. The 22mm hot water circuit that runs the length of the garage (a cold place in winter, obviously) was not lagged. Nor were any of the soldered joints cleaned. I'm 99% sure the internal water stop-cock was as 'frozen' when the new boiler was installed, as it was when we arrived 9 months later. It broke before it would turn. That takes some doing, and I'm sure it takes more than 9 months of non-use to achieve that 'welded' status. Although he is familiar with the building and the set up here, he's not a contender.

 

The people I had lined up, are just too busy with work queued unless I can wait 3-4 months. I have quite a small window of time when Mrs Freddy is having some time off and we can live without hot water if we need to. The changes here are so significant, I would need at least 2 tradesmen booked for the same period, and they would HAVE to be here at pretty much the same time. I struggle to get people here just to quote....    

 

For example: I had a plumber lined up to change the frozen stop-cock shortly after we moved in. On the phone, he sounded ideal, and a date was booked. I emailed a picture to show him what to expect to make sure he had all the equipment necessary to complete the job. Once he saw the installation the boiler installer had done, I got black-balled. Plumber wouldn't pick up the phone, nor answer text nor emails.

 

When the 'new' gas man saw the house plumbing the other day, his term was "it looks like it was thrown together". I don't doubt it.

 

 

If I've learned one thing, it's that 'good' tradesmen, are ALWAYS busy. 

 

 

Correction. The pipework looks to be iron. The joints look to be 'sand cast' iron. The pipework I refer to is unlikely to be drawn steel. I have tried to confirm either way, and so far been unsuccessful in finding out conclusively what the material might be..

 

I have used the term Black Iron to describe what might (technically) be ductile or malleable iron. I and some others refer to this as black iron because of the appearance. Any rust that forms, is not orange/red, but tends to be black? (In fact seems a bit sooty? And maybe why I wouldn't have immediately disassociated it from cast.)

 

Black Iron is also a reference to mild steel coated in a black bitumen type paint. 

 

I had thought steel corroded faster than iron because of the carbon content, and you don't want gas pipes corroding... But again, I'm not finding that easy to resolve either way. 

Edited July 13, 2015 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer]

1.   I don't think you will find any 'cast iron' gas pipe in a house (although old mains may be) - the 'screwed iron' still very commonly used (where appearance is unimportant) is actually mild steel.   I think that running a supply pipe outside is ridiculous - the possible gain in safety by keeping the supply in the open air is more than outweighed by the vulnerability of the pipe to damage and theft.   It is not unknown for outside copper gas pipe to be simply cut and removed by thieves, posing an immediate escape and fire/explosion hazard.   If it must be outside, screwed iron (cheaper than copper) in a ventilated enclosure would surely be the answer?

 

2.   If my system boiler located at the top in a four-story house, with meter in the basement, can be fed properly by a 22mm pipe, I cannot really see why anything larger is needed for almost any domestic set-up.   I doubt that an 'instant heat' combi uses more gas per minute - but that seems to be the implication.

 

3.   No reason I can think of for you not to do all the work - running pipes and hanging boiler, fitting flue etc - APART FROM the final gas connections both ends and commissioning the boiler.   That is exactly what I did with the seaside flat combi and my CH engineer (a family friend, but that didn't really make any difference except on price!) was perfectly happy to spend half a day commissioning and signing-off for Building Control.  (I had actually made all the gas connections myself, including hob, but nothing was turned on or lit until its integrity was checked.)   I'm sure you will be fine, and Mrs F will not be too inconvenienced.

[FastFreddy2]

2.   If my system boiler located at the top in a four-story house, with meter in the basement, can be fed properly by a 22mm pipe, I cannot really see why anything larger is needed for almost any domestic set-up.   I doubt that an 'instant heat' combi uses more gas per minute - but that seems to be the implication.

 

 

 

Reading up on the 'technical' blurb, gas molecules cause friction against the interior of the pipes. High volume demand can be impeded by long runs in smaller bores. (It says here ....)

 

If I'm honest I was slightly aware of a similar problem with water. I had thought that where I had to separate CH supplies to front/back of the house, I would uses 28mm "T's" to keep turbulence/noise on the otherwise 22mm pipe runs, to a minimum. I will use long curves on water mains supply where possible, for the same reason. The only place I will use cheap/easy to use pre-formed soldered bends will be where I've no other choice.

 

I kind of got this as an idea, from some of the current pipework. There is 22mm pipe from the current boiler, but where it changes direction and splits into the two CH pipe loops (front/back of the house) the pipework is 28mm. Originally the boiler was in the middle of the house, hence the back/front split. Since I don't want to cut any more of the joists, I may well use most of the old established route for radiator supply. That front/back split will still have to exist somewhere.

 

At the moment - and possibly for the previous 40+ years of systems existence in this house, we have known when the heating becomes active. It sounds like, and unusually I am not exaggerating here, - like someone is hitting a floor somewhere with a pin hammer (or stamping a foot on the floor). It only lasts for about 10 seconds or so, but is obviously some pipework expanding as the warm water goes through it for the first time. I think the technical term for it is; 'banging'. Apparently many causes ..... Pump working too quickly, rads partially blocked ....  but I think I have found the source, and it's a pipe run with zero clearance on the joists. Nothing unusual here about that. If fact there are still 3 places I know of, where walking on floorboards includes walking on water pipes snug up against the boards above them. The new system will completely ensure these pipes are redundant and will be removed. A job I look forward to, with relish!

 

I tend to let pipework float, or rest with plenty of clearance for movement. The plumber has advised me too much clearance can be bad as it can create vibration, especially with main pressure being turned on and off. The gas man has told me pipework resting on joists should be made quiet by liberal use of felt. Not a bad idea, if I can find some .... I have been using thicker gauge plastic from things like detergent bottles. Credit card shaped plastic card, now used for all sorts of things like membership cards, have been of great use too. Felt has likely greater sound deadening qualities though.

 

 

I have few fears of the installation, other than that I might have with cutting pipe to the right length, the monotony of deburring and possibly swaging back to full size any copper pipework crimped by the cutting process.... My big problem is motivation really. I always work better when I've someone around to 'compete' with.   (Or 'show off' to.  )

Edited July 14, 2015 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer]

The noises you describe ('knocking') can also be caused within the boiler itself as key parts expand, although probably not so much in a combi which is of course designed to be 'off' except when heat is called for.   Yes, pipe expansion/rubbing will also cause noise.    And if the noise is not eliminated in a short time after firing-up (or comes back), the pump may be running at the wrong speed in a pumped system.

 

I bought some felt pipe lagging (a sewn tube) a couple of years ago and it is still available.   As you suggest, just the job for packing around a pipe which is running through notches or past rubbing obstructions.   One can use ordinary loft insulation too - pushed into the gaps around pipe - or even stiff paper or polythene; anything to pad out the gap without adding to friction.  I agree that too much 'float' is to be avoided; pipes should be well supported, even if it is a resilient support.

 

Unless you exert too much pressure when using a pipe cutter, the pipe should not distort, although the internal burr is best removed with a suitable tool as this will reduce bore slightly and impede flow.   A slight dent or ovality is of no importance; a properly cleaned end-feed soldered joint will seal adequately and the fitting will usually help to correct distortion.   If using solder-ring fittings (which I generally avoid), some extra solder is advisable if any question of a loose fit arises.   The key to a good joint is cleanliness/enough heat/adequate flux.   And a 'wipe round' with a slightly damp rag after making the joint should help if any solder does not flow as it should.   Take your time - correcting dry joints can be a bugger after water has been introduced!

[FastFreddy2]

The noises you describe ('knocking') can also be caused within the boiler itself as key parts expand, although probably not so much in a combi which is of course designed to be 'off' except when heat is called for.   Yes, pipe expansion/rubbing will also cause noise.    And if the noise is not eliminated in a short time after firing-up (or comes back), the pump may be running at the wrong speed in a pumped system.

 

I've actually stood above the source. The pipe run is literally held against the joists. I suspect the reason for the downward pressure, is the horizontal pipe is holding up the connected, vertical -unclipped- pipework right next to it. I'll try to include a picture.  

 

I bought some felt pipe lagging (a sewn tube) a couple of years ago and it is still available.   As you suggest, just the job for packing around a pipe which is running through notches or past rubbing obstructions.   One can use ordinary loft insulation too - pushed into the gaps around pipe - or even stiff paper or polythene; anything to pad out the gap without adding to friction.  I agree that too much 'float' is to be avoided; pipes should be well supported, even if it is a resilient support.

 

Unless you exert too much pressure when using a pipe cutter, the pipe should not distort, although the internal burr is best removed with a suitable tool as this will reduce bore slightly and impede flow.   A slight dent or ovality is of no importance; a properly cleaned end-feed soldered joint will seal adequately and the fitting will usually help to correct distortion.   If using solder-ring fittings (which I generally avoid), some extra solder is advisable if any question of a loose fit arises.   The key to a good joint is cleanliness/enough heat/adequate flux.   And a 'wipe round' with a slightly damp rag after making the joint should help if any solder does not flow as it should.   Take your time - correcting dry joints can be a bugger after water has been introduced!

 

In another life, I used to be a welder. Soldering holds no fears for me. I've even done a little Classic Car restoration and used lead around repaired wheel arches. (That had complimentary/joking comments made about how little lead ended up on the floor.) I only ever use end feed joints and have yet to use plastic anywhere, despite assurances it has a 20 year life  .....

 

The wheeled pipecutters I use, all cause the bore of the copper pipe to be reduced. I have priced up some swages on an auction site, with a view to using these to return the bores to their original size. I want to avoid noise in the 15mm (mains) bore, and blockages/resistance in the 22/28mm. At this stage, I expect to replace almost every bit of copper pipework in the house, barring a couple of 'final' runs to 3 radiators. Everything else - going to be new, including replacement or every rad, and complete re-positioning of at least 4. Any wonder the two tradesmen I'm in dialogue with, both say they haven't got time for such a large job?   

[Puffer]

Freddy - I have just seen your correction in post #109 re 'iron' gas pipe.   

 

You are of course correct that the fittings are cast iron, either galvanised (essentially for outdoor/damp conditions) or 'black iron' finish, which is I think the result of a chemical process (oxidation?) during the casting process and gives a certain amount of natural corrosion protection.

 

As to the pipe, it is not cast iron (at least in small supply pipe sizes) as this is far too brittle.   Although often referred to as 'malleable iron' (meaning it can be bent), it is I think usually/normally drawn mild steel these days and is again in galvanised or black finish.   Such suppliers as I have identified do say that it is steel.

 

I don't think that corrosion is a real problem in iron/steel gas pipes/fittings, given their wall thickness.   As you say, iron resists rusting better than steel.   Interestingly, the only gas leak I have ever experienced was from a 'black steel' pipe inside my house.   It had been installed only about 5 years earlier by British Gas to supply the meter, which was in the bottom of a cupboard but quite close to (damp) earth below the floor.   I was not impressed and insisted on a repair FOC, using galvanised.   In those days (1978), if not now, it was usual to run gas in steel pipe wherever this was not an eyesore (when copper was used).   Better for resisting damage but not necessarily corrosion.

 

A further thought regarding your re-plumb in copper.   You may well find that your local scrap merchant sells brand-new copper pipe (and fittings) at a good discount.   Mine certainly does.   I don't know where it comes from - although obviously 'leftovers' from a job somewhere - and don't ask!   Although the pipe is invariably straight, clean and undamaged, it is of course worth checking, especially if the bundle has been made up from different sources.   The fittings (usually there by the bucket-load) are particularly cheap as sold by weight - a handful costs almost nothing.

 

Until recently, I too would not touch plastic pipe.   But I have since used it (although not for gas!) and am quite impressed - although I avoid joints in visible locations.   One location where (white) plastic 15mm pipe is handy is in the upstands from below the floor into the rad valves - no painting necessary!   If necessary, they are joined to the (horizontal) underfloor supply pipe with either a plastic or a brass compression elbow.

[FastFreddy2]

A neighbour, who was living in a council house had a new supply run up an outside wall in 15mm (so quite fragile) with a public footpath running right next to that wall. Literally, a careless pedestrian could have damaged the pipework. My neighbour, wisely in my opinion, boxed the pipework to prevent such a situation. I know I have seen it somewhere else, and from that had thought it was possibly more typical than it might be. The 28mm seems to me to be the complete opposite end of the spectrum. ALL of my current gas copper pipework is in 22mm. The User Destructions for the 12i or 15i version of the Greenstar says 15mm is acceptable (with a caveat I can't recall - that maybe the length of the supply pipe). 

 

Of course the day I might pop back to my old dwelling to pick up post, I HAD to have left my decent camera at home. 

 

Anyway ..... Picture of boxed in 15mm gas supply, literally out in the street. If you look closely above the boxing in, you will see the copper pipe has been painted white (by my neighbour) to disguise the pipe above eye level.

 

This is a fairly busy path, and used by many semi-feral kids housed in moderately run down dwellings in the background.

 

One of the little monsters was actually caught using the bonnet (hood) of my car as a trampoline one afternoon. Police were involved. Little monster was too young to prosecute, and the feral mother was pennyless. (So no point in court action.) The 'monster' was known to the police as a psycho, and they expected a long record of wayward/illegal behaviour to mount as she got older ...... I wasn't sorry to leave.

 

Picture: 

[FastFreddy2]

During the past couple of weeks and next two, I'm busy either refurbishing a student let, or my own gaff, or trying to get to the allotment, or working in a friends garden, So I am not  getting out in heels at all at the moment... 

Consequently, I 'gave in to temptation' and spent 4 hours digging out grout and replacing with new, wearing 5 inch heels over the weekend. With concern I might be visited by the landlord, it meant for keen hearing while I worked. I had double locked the front door, but bare floorboards mean any movement is producing an echo that can be heard for 50 yards. Meaning, someone standing at the front door could hear me walking about if they just listened. Fortunately the house next door is empty, and the landlord doesn't like visiting. 

I'll be there most of this week, likely painting. Doing this in a heel is useful as it increases my reach without much effort, but would be hard to explain to visitors.  

 

[FastFreddy2]

Last night, had another stint wearing some 5 inch heels while painting and cleaning a couple of ceilings. They make things a little difficult, and I found they slowed me a little too. But also made the boredom a little more bearable. (Once you've painted a ceiling once, all the fun goes out of the second and third coat. .)

 

This is a picture of the boots I wear. Originally "slouch" calf boots, I have cut off the slouch bit which was bulky and unattractive. 

 

 

I used to have a few pairs of these because they come with a 5 inch heel. But the heel in this pair (the only ones I'd worn) developed a 'creak' after very little use. Fearing the worst (poor quality) I moved them on. The heel hasn't detached yet, but it's not as stable as it could be. It doesn't move around, so it isn't dangerous, but both heels creak when I walk. As Mrs Freddy often says, "Don't buy cheap shoes!".

 

[FastFreddy2]

During part of the last weekend, I'd finally made a start on replacing/re-positioning the main internal soil stack. I will only gain about 10-12 inches of space, but it also gives me some room for new supply-pipe runs for the all-direct (combi) heating/hot-water system. A good job I didn't price it up before-hand. Pipework is costing .... About half done. Mrs Freddy has a working bath, but we don't have a working toilet on the upper floor at the mo'. I don't want to risk upsetting my pipework bodge and leave us bath-less, until she has a day or two off work.

Back when we bought the house originally, she had to have a strip wash as the gaff was so dirty, she wouldn't use the bathroom until it had been sanitised. She is reluctant to start doing this again, especially at 5.30am anyway, and I don't blame her.

In my defence, had I two sets of every conceivable bit of pipework and joint I might need, it's a job that could (and should) have been completed in a couple of days. The worst bit being the removal of 50 year old (used) soil pipe. A couple of hiccups included removing the two pipe clips that were NAILED into joists, and finding a (less than perfect) way to get the ground floor soil stack vertical, despite where the heating engineer had placed new hot-water pipes for the replacement boiler 6 years ago. When the older boiler goes, so will the pipework which will allow the soil pipe to sit unbent. (I've had to put a slight curve in it to get the pipework above in the right place.)

The new installation looks prettier, with adequate clipping, unlike before. Some bathrooms have a single waste for bath and sink, we don't, and I want to keep that to avoid siphoning and the increased noise a single waste can cause. Originally the bath waste led to the stack underneath the toilet connection (???) The new arrangement means the (plain) water running from the sink and bath, will now help carry toilet debris away in a slightly more effective manor. (No outlet to catch debris on its downward journey.)

I had perceived the big problem would be getting the toilet connection in roughly the right place. At the moment (since the toilet isn't connected) it doesn't look like it's going to be a big deal after all. Getting the right point for the bath waste to join has been much harder. The run is 1.7m long, and the bath outlet -obviously- starts pretty low when it leaves the bath... Mine isn't the cheapest solution by any means, but I have high hopes the new arrangement will work. I have found room to drop 50mm over the length of the pipe run, and have a little more if needed. For 40mm waste, I reckon 20mm minimum to 30mm maximum per metre should be about right. 25mm per metre is recommended - research suggests. The older arrangement that I will need to completely replace, didn't have any pipe clips holding it up either ...

My neighbour is insistent the original builders here produced a good quality product ... My experiences suggest otherwise ... In fact it rather looks like anyone claiming to be plumbing/heating qualified tradesman that has worked here, were plainly 'passed' with the lowest possible marks. I'm not saying anything is "bad" as such, just nothing is close to being "good" (or well thought out) either. 'Minimum possible' would cover it.

 

P.S.

Thinking about it, I AM saying it's bad. I've just reminded myself of how much pipework sits against floorboards.... Cowboys.

 

 

 

 

[Puffer]

Good luck with the soil pipe, Freddy.   I assume that, although 50 years old (did you bake a cake?), it is 110mm plastic and therefore susceptible to easy alteration with push-fit or solvent-weld fittings of current manufacture.  A few observations:

1.  With a 40mm waste, a very gradual gradient will usually be fine unless the run is longer than about 3m (which is far from ideal anyway).   25mm/m will be perfectly OK - anything greater can lead to the flow being too rapid with an increased danger of 'pulling' the trap.   For 32mm, increase to 40mm/m or more if the run is greater than about 1.7m - or run in 40mm pipe.

2.   Whilst bath and basin wastes are best connected to stack separately, it is not essential and they can join before stack - helpful if space is tight or to avoid duplicating pipe runs (especially if basin run would be long).   Using an anti-vac trap will avoid the flow in one pipe pulling the other trap.

3.   I see your concern about WC connections being better below waste pipe connections, although WC waste most unlikely to block any lower waste inlet, but the latter should be at least 200mm lower.   Do however avoid two waste connections at same level being opposite one another - but they can be at 90 degrees.   A short boss pipe [http://www.toolstation.com/search?searchstr=32314 24326] is a handy and compact means of connecting wastes if the WC branch does not have bosses suitably located.   Make sure you get the right rubber adaptor to fit each boss you use - not all makes of boss are the same internal diameter, and also pipe may be 32 or 40mm of course.

4.    I assume that, although internal, your soil pipe goes on through the ceiling/wall/roof to vent above the eaves.   (Unusual to do otherwise 50 years ago.)   Have you considered fitting an internal air admittance valve instead (above overflow level of highest appliance connected - probably a basin): [http://www.toolstation.com/search?searchstr=45005 77893] ?   This can save space and eliminate unsightly higher pipework but of course will need old exit holes etc to be blocked/made good.

5.   I'm sure your WC connection will be OK.   The connectors have a fair amount of give in them and you could always use a flexible connector if really necessary, although they are not pretty.

6.   If you don't have a rodding access conveniently below the WC connection(s), it may be worthy adding one - ideally where you need to join pipe anyway: [http://www.toolstation.com/search?searchstr=69732 72361]

7.   Don't forget to allow for small expansion of waste pipes, especially with solvent weld, e.g. if pipe runs vertically through a hole in floor and may get pushed against side.

8.   The common shallow bath trap has, strictly, insufficient seal depth when connected to soil pipe and can get pulled (so smells get into bathroom thru plug'ole).   A 3" seal is preferable if space below bath allows - cut a hole in floor if necessary to take trap bend.

9.   However tempting/convenient/pleasurable it may be, do NOT wear stilettos when standing in a bath to do work above.   Wear wedges instead.

[FastFreddy2]

 

1.  With a 40mm waste, a very gradual gradient will usually be fine unless the run is longer than about 3m (which is far from ideal anyway).   25mm/m will be perfectly OK - anything greater can lead to the flow being too rapid with an increased danger of 'pulling' the trap.   For 32mm, increase to 40mm/m or more if the run is greater than about 1.7m - or run in 40mm pipe.

The sink sits between the bath and the soil pipe, so the sink run is a bit under 1m.

2.   Whilst bath and basin wastes are best connected to stack separately, it is not essential and they can join before stack - helpful if space is tight or to avoid duplicating pipe runs (especially if basin run would be long).   Using an anti-vac trap will avoid the flow in one pipe pulling the other trap.

3.   I see your concern about WC connections being better below waste pipe connections, although WC waste most unlikely to block any lower waste inlet, but the latter should be at least 200mm lower.   Do however avoid two waste connections at same level being opposite one another - but they can be at 90 degrees.   A short boss pipe [http://www.toolstation.com/search?searchstr=32314 24326] is a handy and compact means of connecting wastes if the WC branch does not have bosses suitably located.   Make sure you get the right rubber adaptor to fit each boss you use - not all makes of boss are the same internal diameter, and also pipe may be 32 or 40mm of course.

Manufacturers using different sized bosses, had me thrown for several days... Unbelievably (though with plumbing anything is possible) the Floplast standard branch, sits lower than the Wickes short boss junction... By at least an inch! 

4.    I assume that, although internal, your soil pipe goes on through the ceiling/wall/roof to vent above the eaves.   (Unusual to do otherwise 50 years ago.)   Have you considered fitting an internal air admittance valve instead (above overflow level of highest appliance connected - probably a basin): [http://www.toolstation.com/search?searchstr=45005 77893] ?   This can save space and eliminate unsightly higher pipework but of course will need old exit holes etc to be blocked/made good.

As a temporary measure, I have bought an AAV. It's longterm home will be in the new kitchen. I intend to re-use the original roof vent with the toilet stack. I have read somewhere Building Regs don't like every soil stack to be AAV'd, and I won't have a choice about the kitchen one. 

5.   I'm sure your WC connection will be OK.   The connectors have a fair amount of give in them and you could always use a flexible connector if really necessary, although they are not pretty.

I will not be using a flexible connector under any circumstances. I have all too often seen the inside of smooth connectors ... As smooth ones gather (ahemm) "dirt", I am not giving a flexible one the chance to store debris. You are right about "not pretty". Bug ugly...

6.   If you don't have a rodding access conveniently below the WC connection(s), it may be worthy adding one - ideally where you need to join pipe anyway: [http://www.toolstation.com/search?searchstr=69732 72361]

The is one already at the base of the stack, and they'll be one at the bottom/top of the kitchen stack. Were possible I am using joints that can be separated too. When I construct something, I like to "build in" maintenance provision, unlike the original builders.

7.   Don't forget to allow for small expansion of waste pipes, especially with solvent weld, e.g. if pipe runs vertically through a hole in floor and may get pushed against side.

I always allow for movement. 

8.   The common shallow bath trap has, strictly, insufficient seal depth when connected to soil pipe and can get pulled (so smells get into bathroom thru plug'ole).   A 3" seal is preferable if space below bath allows - cut a hole in floor if necessary to take trap bend.

I have a picture somewhere in this thread showing the hole in the floor. Might even show the electrical cable that runs right underneath it. You REALLY couldn't put the cable in a worse place. Circa 3 sq metre of floor, and the builders run a cable right underneath not only the only hole in the floor, but were water leakage might occur at some stage in the life of the building. Repeated below.

 

 

9.   However tempting/convenient/pleasurable it may be, do NOT wear stilettos when standing in a bath to do work above.   Wear wedges instead.

Comment "9" raises an interesting query/solution.

In the gaff I'm supposed to be going up for an impending let, I had to do some work around the ceiling inside the shower cubicle. Standing in heels was much easier than standing on tip-toes for any length of time. The solution was a sturdy toolbox, that not only gave me a welcome 25cm of extra height, but prevented me from puncturing the shower tray. Getting on and off the toolbox inside the already raised cubicle, was a little interesting though ...  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2015 by FastFreddy2
Pictures added.

[Puffer]

Interesting pics, Freddy - thanks.   You seem to have all in hand, so just a few follow-up points (same numbering):

3.   The differences in dimensions between soil makes is rather surprising and can indeed lead to problems.   The BS probably covers little more than pipe diameter!   (Not so many years ago, almost every drainpipe/gutter maker had different ideas and little was compatible in the way that the standard roundline stuff, at least, now is.)   The boss sizes are a particular problem, although many are the same and take the Floplast (Screwfix) or Kalsi (Toolstation) adaptors.   The Kalsi range is about the cheapest for soil that is readily available.

4.   Yes, it is still necessary for the sewer to be vented regularly; I think BC normally requires it once per three adjoining dwellings with stink pipe above roof level.   Are you saying that you have two vertical soil pipes and intend to terminate just one at AAV?   (Not a problem if so, as far as I can see, but two pipes in normal house not common.)   It is now possible to get and install an AAV externally - risk of jamming from frost used to be the problem.

5.   I agree about flexi conns.   They do have their uses, however; I have had to use them, pretty well compressed, to join an old earthenware soil pipe under a floor to a vertical WC pan connector when replacing a WC - not an 'official' use but totally effective.   With ordinary flanged plain pipe/fittings/pan connectors, I rarely find any significant 'dirt' build-up when dismantling.   Indeed, it is surprising how generally clean and sweet (relatively) most systems remain - given 24hrs for the last curry to flush away.

8.   An awkward set-up indeed.   Not sure why you need any floor under the bath (assuming it is panelled) and that thin ply doesn't achieve much anyway!   I have sometimes removed all the boards under a bath and let its feet rest on just the joists (or a stout board across them).   That way, the trap depth/access is optimised and the bath may be able to sit a little lower - avoiding the need to wear high heels whilst climbing into it .   I wouldn't worry about the cable; mechanical or water damage is unlikely but, if worried, enclose it in a piece of square trunking with a snap-on lid through the danger area.

One very small point.   When I have to leave a soil pipe 'open' during work, I invariably plug it with a carrier bag stuffed with newspaper and handles tied to make a 'ball' - simple but effective smell-eliminator and won't get lost in pipe.   Today is your last chance for a free carrier bag - 5p charge from tomorrow!

[FastFreddy2]

 

3.   The differences in dimensions between soil makes is rather surprising and can indeed lead to problems.   The BS probably covers little more than pipe diameter!   (Not so many years ago, almost every drainpipe/gutter maker had different ideas and little was compatible in the way that the standard roundline stuff, at least, now is.)   The boss sizes are a particular problem, although many are the same and take the Floplast (Screwfix) or Kalsi (Toolstation) adaptors.   The Kalsi range is about the cheapest for soil that is readily available.

Thankfully, there is no "budget" constraint on this project. (If there was, it would have been a no-hoper as costs have spiralled.) I have opted to use Floplast for the waste junctions and AAV because they are an independent brand available everywhere. Which should mean replacements will be available if some clown (me) screws up some time in the future.

4.   Yes, it is still necessary for the sewer to be vented regularly; I think BC normally requires it once per three adjoining dwellings with stink pipe above roof level.   Are you saying that you have two vertical soil pipes and intend to terminate just one at AAV?   (Not a problem if so, as far as I can see, but two pipes in normal house not common.)   It is now possible to get and install an AAV externally - risk of jamming from frost used to be the problem.

This is a large house (though you might not know it given we use 3 rooms.) There are two stacks that vent to the outside world, and potentially a third that I haven't yet found the location of. As long as I can show one venting through the roof, I'm not expecting a problem when the council Building Inspector is invited around for a compliance cert. 

5.   I agree about flexi conns.   They do have their uses, however; I have had to use them, pretty well compressed, to join an old earthenware soil pipe under a floor to a vertical WC pan connector when replacing a WC - not an 'official' use but totally effective.   With ordinary flanged plain pipe/fittings/pan connectors, I rarely find any significant 'dirt' build-up when dismantling.   Indeed, it is surprising how generally clean and sweet (relatively) most systems remain - given 24hrs for the last curry to flush away.

I don't know about Kent, but Herts is a very hard water area. Limsecale buildup is a big problem. Non-smooth surfaces (limed up) internal surfaces attract debris. I know that the manufacturers of this flexi couplings claim they've "not been advised" of an increase in blockages nor build up problems, but I can't tell you how many times I've rung manufacturers/retailers about a poorly made/poorly designed product, only to be told "We've never heard that before." Yeah, right.

8.   An awkward set-up indeed.   Not sure why you need any floor under the bath (assuming it is panelled) and that thin ply doesn't achieve much anyway!   I have sometimes removed all the boards under a bath and let its feet rest on just the joists (or a stout board across them).   That way, the trap depth/access is optimised and the bath may be able to sit a little lower - avoiding the need to wear high heels whilst climbing into it .   I wouldn't worry about the cable; mechanical or water damage is unlikely but, if worried, enclose it in a piece of square trunking with a snap-on lid through the danger area.

Cleanliness. Plus I have a cat that likes to wander into the voids... There will be a panel on the side of the bath, but I much prefer the look of the boarded floor, to an open void. If I had my way, the whole of the floor area would be water-tight, as this place is best known for water leaks over anything else.

One very small point.   When I have to leave a soil pipe 'open' during work, I invariably plug it with a carrier bag stuffed with newspaper and handles tied to make a 'ball' - simple but effective smell-eliminator and won't get lost in pipe.   Today is your last chance for a free carrier bag - 5p charge from tomorrow!

I employed a carrier bag to effectively block an outlet from the soil stack that was used by the previous owner for her washing machine. The 'temporary' fix lasted years. The new stack removes that problem forever of course. I bought the AAV to use as a temporary closure for the "in-work" stack replacement. I don't actually need it until we do the kitchen, possibly early next year.  

 

I didn't know Toolstation did plumbing items. To be honest their hardcopy catalogue is useful, but I don't have eyesight good enough to make best use of it. The web site is okay for finding a single item, but less good for browsing. They could take a leaf from Screwfix on that. I'll be grabbing a catalogue later today for reference. I like a bargain if there's one to be had, and I'll be buying a lot of copper pipe soon. 

 

 

[Puffer]

On your last point, Freddy, I have used Toolstation (and Screwfix) for years and find TS slightly better on price and service where there is compatibility between products, although I accept TS has a smaller range.   Until recently, TS did not sell copper in 3m lengths (only 2m) but now does, and its current price is a little less than SF.   You might find a trip to your local scrap merchant useful - I can buy 'virgin' 3m lengths there at a significant saving over normal trade sources.   (You can only speculate as to why anyone would sell unused lengths of pipe for scrap, or unused fittings for that matter.   My scrappy usually has both for the choosing.)

Hard water here too - and everywhere else I have worked at!   Yes, some limescale does build up but never found it an issue in waste/soil pipes.   And I use one or other descaling devices on incoming mains.

[FastFreddy2]

I missed getting a catalogue from TS. 

Having left myself short on time, I went to Wickes some 6/7 miles away to source wastepipe and fittings, only to be told the store now operates like SF, in that you fill out a form, pay for products, and then decide if you want to keep. I told the fella bearing the bad news, if I wanted SF type service, I'd go around the corner and use SF. I managed to get to a B+Q where I touched and bought a good number of waste pipe fittings because I could touch them. Paid a bit more, but I got to have a play with junctions before deciding what I wanted to take. 

I like Wickes, but they are the furthest of the DIY stores from me. Saving £1 by using them, when I get better quality (branded) products, less travelling, and the same service only a mile away, am I going to shop there? Nope.

 

The REALLY annoying thing was/is .... A part I did then buy from a SF (literally) around the corner from Wickes, I found in B+Q anyway (though I didn't see it on their web site). Worse, it was cheaper at B+Q than both Wickes and SF too. I wasn't so annoyed/frustrated about losing the 7 or 8 pence saving, but if I had known about B+Q having the 'special' item, I wouldn't have bothered driving to Wickes in the first place.... Grrrr.  

 

[Puffer]

I no longer have a Wickes nearby, but still buy there when I need certain heavier materials etc.   But not for screws, plumbing or electrical stuff etc as it is invariably significantly more expensive.   I've never found a situation in Wickes where items could not be inspected 'on the shelf' and had to be 'requisitioned' (à la SF/TS) but I gather that certain branches also have a TS facility within them, which doubtless operates that way.   (Both are part of the Travis Perkins empire - which begs the question as to why the same item sold in TP, W and/or TS is invariably priced differently.)

Maybe you were actually trying to buy at a TS within W?   I never have the 'prepayment-then-return' problem at TS as I can always ask to see something before it is invoiced - although one does not abuse the facility when the queue or shopping list is lengthy - which is one reason why I like shopping there as the staff are helpful.   With SF (just around the corner), one does not usually get the same degree of help or friendliness.

As B&Q and SF are both Kingfisher-owned, there are some products in common, but B&Q usually dearer and (assuming no pricing error) never cheaper in my experience.   I have B&Q Trade card and this sometimes (but not always) gives a small saving on normal price, but again would not be less than SF.   (The B&Q Diamond card for over-60s may give a better result if used on a Wednesday with 10% off.)

A saving of a pound or two is always welcome, although of course not at the expense of an extra journey or wasted time.   I usually know what I want (even if detail needs inspection at the counter) and check online before I go to establish price and availability - easy at SF and TS; usually OK at Wickes but somewhat unreliable at B&Q.

Another advantage of TS is the 'free delivery' on an order of £10+ - which actually makes it easier and cheaper to buy online for next-day delivery to home than to drive 1.5 miles to the branch!   But I do usually collect in person.   And anything not in stock at TS or SF can be sent to a branch FOC for collection next day.