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pointyboot

Been awhile........

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Hello, all. Just checking in. I kind of let this site go for awhile, because it had become quite the ghost town. Looks like it's still kinda quiet in here.........

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8 minutes ago, pointyboot said:

Hello, all. Just checking in. I kind of let this site go for awhile, because it had become quite the ghost town. Looks like it's still kinda quiet in here.........

Yes, it is. It had a brief bit of buzz last September but that swiftly died away. A pity. This could be a good forum...

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I check in every now and then, but you're right, there's rarely much new stuff.

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Just as I was trying to have a snooze after the hedonistic excesses of Christmas (OK - an extra mince pie), everything starts up again ... I wish.

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Well at least some people are looking.... 

Rather looks like the UK is about to start an extended period of "lockdown" where we Brits are to be under house arrest except to join large groups of people 'at work' and other groups of fellow travellers on the way to/from a workplace if using public transport. The government wants us to continue sending our children to 'virus propagation centres', usually known as schools/colleges. We are of course allowed to visit supermarkets and mix with in the same atmosphere at the 500 other shoppers in the store while we shop, together air expelled by the immediately previous 500 shoppers. 

Any form of respite from this, is banned, with an increasing scale of fines for offenders/reoffenders. So while we may mix with others at work and school, we may not mix with any family we don't live with. We may not indulge in ANY form of socialising, nor personal care like visiting a gym or going to a hairdresser. "Retail therapy" (Mrs Freddy's favourite sort) also banned. All non-essential shops are currently closed for most, with a full 'lockdown' expected for another month, possibly two.

It's probably mentioned elsewhere, but I have been as careful (paranoid) about personal safety as it's been possible to be. Since early March (so 3 weeks before covid became a national issue) I've worn gloves and a mask every time I've had contact with the public. Anything coming into the house either gets washed in soapy water (as I sing happy birthday, twice) or disinfected, or is put into "quarantine" for at least 2 weeks. Washing hands regardless to having worn gloves (or using sanitiser) every time I/we come into the house. So far, no symptoms, and since Mrs F has been tested (and will be again this week), we are covid free.

Frankly, I am not fully understanding how so many people are still getting sick, and I'm not sure if the figures announced for those who perish are accurate either. We have personal experience of a 98 year old with terminal cancer, who unsurprisingly got covid while in hospital. (I have read several reports that claim 50% of the people in hospital with covid, caught it while they were there.) The lady passed away, and because we know the family we know this to be true:  she went into the covid statistics. I'm not denying people get covid (we know of two who may have had it), nor that there is greater risk to some groups. (Old especially, anyone overweight, those already with compromised immune systems due to long term ill health.) The news media, and government are using statistics to claim things are getting worse and the second wave (we knew was to arrive in Winter from at least September) has us unprepared (potential of running out of oxygen and trained medical staff) and in a worse situation than we had in May and June. So following on with the notion about how are so many getting infected, there seems to be little interest in this. I wonder why?

If 20% of people got it at work and they passed it to 70% of the other people infected, that would tell us where new more stringent (harsher) restrictions should be introduced. A similar story could be true of schools and colleges/universities. But no-one is looking at the causes or pathway to infection. That or it's known, and it's just too "hot" an issue to discuss....

A line from a well known British comedy runs ..... "this time next year Rodney" ......  I'm hoping that "this time next year" covid-19 will be consigned to history, and hopefully all members here will be around to see it gone. B)

 

Edited by FastFreddy2

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Even if one already is terminally ill, if one dies of Covid, or if covid is a contributing factor, then it would properly be included in the Covid statistics.

Same is if you were dying of cancer, with only hours to live, and someone shoots you. It still counts as a homicide and the death is recorded in the crime statistics. 

 

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1 hour ago, Shyheels said:

Even if one already is terminally ill, if one dies of Covid, or if covid is a contributing factor, then it would properly be included in the Covid statistics.

Same is if you were dying of cancer, with only hours to live, and someone shoots you. It still counts as a homicide and the death is recorded in the crime statistics. 

 

Not quite right.   In law, one has to establish the 'proximate cause' of some event.   There may be one or more 'side acts' that possibly intervene, influence or interract but are not themselves causative of death.   Yes, the dying cancer patient who is shot dead is a victim of murder or manslaughter (the immediate cause of his death) but if he instead was infected with Covid, that would not necessarily be the proximate cause of his ultimate death, despite it weakening his immune system etc with an accelerating effect.

What worries me about the statistics is that anyone who has had Covid within the 28 days preceding death is counted as a Covid victim, however incidental that infection might have been.   With many people having underlying health issues, Covid infection is of course potentially lethal for them but is not in itself likely to be the immediate cause of their deaths.   As most of these people would, alas, have died anyway (but probably a little later), it is misleading to treat them as Covid victims.

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A person dying of cancer can quite readily die of Covid before the cancer claims them. Without knowing specific cases, and seeing a coroners report, and having medial knowledge oneself tio be able to interpret what has been said, it is impossible to speak to spefic cases. True, there may well be people dying with Covid rather than of it who are included in the statistics, but that would be offset by, for example, heart attack victims who are and were utterly Covid free but who died because of overstressed medical facilities. I'm sure there are mkore than a few of those as the excess deaths statistic would imply.  

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Lets not get bogged-down with specific examples.   I'm neither a medical man nor a coroner, but the proximate cause of someone dying because of over-stretched (or no) medical facilities remains the heart attack (or other sudden medical problem) - not the novus actus interveniens of the poor treatment (or of possibly being infected by Covid whilst awaiting treatment etc.)

My cousin's widow died a few months ago at 94.   She had underlying (but not I believe terminal) health issues including dementia, and was infected by Covid during her final hospitalisation.   Her death certificate mentioned all of these 'issues', which together so weakened her that her death came earlier than otherwise expected.   The true cause was organ failure or somesuch.

Whichever way one looks at it, we have a serious (and growing) problem - and I certainly do not make light of it.   But including as a 'Covid' death everyone who had (recently) been infected does exaggerate the effect of the virus, when many (perhaps most) of those people would not have died at that time if they had not been infected, but would have died anyway within a shortish period.   Covid accelerated their demise; it did not cause it. 

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Well, all one has to do is look at the excess deaths figures - deaths, over and above those of a normal year. These are substantial - indeed considerably more than the figures quoted for Covid deaths. There is no question that things are not going well at present. Something is causing all these excess deaths. What do you suppose it might be?

Edited by Shyheels

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I haven't seen up-to-date figures.   If, as you say, excess deaths are greater than Covid-specific deaths, I can only assume that (in the absence of another new virus or other emergent cause - and none has been publicised) many or most of these excess deaths arise as the result of NHS facilities being denied to people with other treatable conditions - notably including cancer.   I find it worrying that the NHS is, in effect, deciding who shall live and who shall die when there is competition for beds and treatment.   Of course, such difficult decisions do have to be made, but the emphasis does seem to have been on treating Covid patients (many of whom are in poor health anyway and potentially in terminal decline) at the expense of others, many of whom would certainly regain their health and survive.

There is no magic answer and the situation is certainly serious.   But, with the benefit of hindsight, I suggest that there will be recognition that a number of mistakes have been made already.   We can only hope for improvement.

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6 hours ago, Puffer said:

Whichever way one looks at it, we have a serious (and growing) problem - and I certainly do not make light of it.   But including as a 'Covid' death everyone who had (recently) been infected does exaggerate the effect of the virus, when many (perhaps most) of those people would not have died at that time if they had not been infected, but would have died anyway within a shortish period.   Covid accelerated their demise; it did not cause it. 

A simpler way to express the sentiment, would be the death certificate of someone dying from an air crash. I doubt anyone would have "Plane Crash" as cause of death on their certificate, it would be massive fatal trauma or a medical term that related to that. 

The suggestion is (my suggestion is) with almost every patient in hospital contracting the virus, every hospital death is being painted as a covid death to bolster the daily death count. This is "propaganda". Without doubt, Covid-19 is a virus that can kill. Without doubt we all need to do everything we can to evade infection. But bringing the country to a standstill (effectively switching a lightbulb on and  off) for a third time isn't a solution. Today there is talk of periodic lockdowns through 2021. ...

image.png.44eea138d16c6db3aad301794b0a2afc.png

 

Did Australia need to do this? Did New Zealand?   No, because unlike the UK, they shut their borders and had everyone stay home. The UK even when in lockdown, was allowing people to travel here and they weren't checked as they passed through the airport on their way to ..... No one knew.

On Sunday our Pm wanted parents to send their children to school, despite the known risks involved "they are safe". (Refer to chart above.) Not 24 hours later, the same man declared schools weren't safe (refer to chart) and schools/colleges/universities were to be closed as were non-essential shops.

Following the lockdown announcement, it was pointed out that because pet shops are allowed to stay open, you could walk into a shop and buy your dog a coat, but you couldn't walk into a shop and buy your child one.  

I'm not a denier., and I'm not a raging capitalist either, but if two shots at restrictions don't work, a third, a fourth, a fifth won't work either.

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Australia most certainly brought in restrictions! Far stricter ones than were ever brought in here. Victoria was living under virtual martial law for six months. 

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