Narrowboats, Houseboats and Cruises.....

[FastFreddy2]

 

I saw (what I'm now told is) a house boat a couple of weeks ago. I also now know from the maker it's cost is £160k+vat with engine. (likely less without).

 

 

Hopefully, I've added some responses copied over from the Meetings thread.

[FastFreddy2]

The boats pictured are houseboats; they may not even have engines so require permanent moorings - or towing.   Frankly, I think they are rather ugly, although living on the water like that can be fun, given its limitations.   But (and it is a big but), moorings, especially in London, can be both difficult to find and very expensive.   I have no figures to hand but canal-dwelling is not such a free-and-easy and affordable way of life as might be believed.

I have certainly enjoyed many holidays on a traditionally-shaped, powered narrowboat and commend it as a relaxing way of seeing the country (and the historic industrial areas too) from a new and generally peaceful perspective.   I'm not so sure though about living permanently on a crowded London canal such as at Little Venice or near Camden Lock.

[FastFreddy2]

Freddy,

The mooring costs alone would be astronomical.... I've seen old scrappers of narrowboats (Worth <£10k) sell for a price in the £50-60k because they had a residential mooring and then you had up to £1000 per month mooring fee!

I did think about central Manchester but lack of power/water provision and quite expensive moorings ruled it out.

 

[FastFreddy2]

Given the train fare the rest of us would have to pay to get into London every year, , even London mooring fees look affordable. (Ref Poplar Dock.)

I think some of you had thought that perhaps I was suggesting life on a London canal was the panacea to London living, or the route to an idyllic life. Living on a houseboat (powered or otherwise) surely has to do with a lifestyle choice, not just "living to a price". Had I the choice, I would live on water tomorrow. Be that on a river, canal, or the sea. Travelling up and down French canals would be great, as would living on a boat somewhere in the North-West Mediterranean.

>> This << looks basic enough for my needs, with mooring fees at £98 per month. As I understand it, narrowboats (any riverboat) would only pay mooring fees if stationed in one place for more than 48 hours. As long as the cost of a bit of fuel every couple of days wasn't prohibitive, there might be no mooring fees to consider. Since I am a fan of Art Deco, the houseboat pictured, seems like the perfect water lodging place for me. 

 

[FastFreddy2]

I've had two narrowboats in the past, one of which I lived on for a while, yes it is a lifestyle choice and a very pleasant one, However, it can get cold and damp in winter, if you don't have a mooring you can only stay in one place for two weeks, I've had frozen water tanks, frozen diesel... if I didn't have to work I would again get afloat. 

Btw the diesel is the cheap bit... you use red gas!

That particular boat you posted is ideal, purely for the mooring! 

Oh and heels and wet decks...... I can see Freddy taking a swim

[FastFreddy2]

I'm already much further South than you (assuming your boats were moored local to you). I very much doubt I'd need to worry about frozen diesel here, we barely get frozen water (thankfully). I have read the specification of some boats for sale, and they include thermal lining. I doubt it was cheap to do.

I'm beginning to understand, the mooring is possibly more important than the boat. I have priced up weekend stays in a narrowboats but the prices were the same as a weekend in Paris. Consequently, it seemed to me owning a narrowboat for a year, was cheaper than a couple of weekends away on one. Had I the money, I'd buy the boat linked above, for the sake of the mooring, and rent it out - maybe.

As you have said you would return to a narrowboat but for having to work, I'd take that as a recommendation to the pleasure of life on the water.  I recognise there are downsides to it, but there are downsides to living in a house too.  Though a house is much easier to use for wearing heels.  

[FastFreddy2]

Narrowboats on British canals are fun, whether for a holiday or (lifestyle permitting) as a residence.   But don't underestimate the limitations or the costs.   Moorings, insurance and basic licences aside, maintenance does not come cheap and regulations are becoming more stringent about the condition and use of vessels.   And boats are no longer able to run on red diesel; as I understand it, the propulsion element of diesel usage is no longer relieved of duty although the heating element is - so a composite rate of tax is charged although this does reflect the assumed heating element fairly generously.    (I don't write from personal experience of owning a narrowboat but my brother has owned one for years and his annual outlay on it, regardless of cruising use, is by no means trivial.)

As to narrowboat holidays, these have become significantly more expensive in recent years and compare quite unfavourably with many more sophisticated holidays at home or abroad, more's the pity.   Frankly, I would not now consider such a holiday unless arranged on a group basis (family or otherwise) for 6 - 8 people.   There are two good reasons for this:   (a) the cost per head is much lower as the group gets bigger - most of the hire cost relates to the basic provision of the boat and its fuel;   (b) the chores are more fairly spread and the holiday is more relaxing for all.   (Contrary to popular belief, spending most of one's holiday on the tiller, working locks or in the galley is not much fun, but can be inevitable if the crew is only husband and wife.)   Get a good group together and a fairly 'busy' itinerary and, almost regardless of weather and location, a great week afloat is almost guaranteed.

[FastFreddy2]

When I bought my first boat, the surveyor (A pretty decent chap) did warn me that a boat is just a hole in the water into which you pour money. 

 

And to be fair he was quite right, though I can see how the costs associated with a narrowboat, compared to London housing prices could be attractive.

I'm now into caravan breaks in my static at "Sunny" Blackpool....

Almost forgot its CBB on channel 5..... and apart from the usual mindless drivel from z list Americans .... there are usually some nice heels to be spotted.... as wellas the ever pleasing to the eye Emma Willis.

 

[FastFreddy2]

I wonder if canal boats are cheaper on the continent - both in terms of purchase cost and upkeep? They do seem like an interesting option if one wanted to spend a year exploring Europe.

[FastFreddy2]

I think costs may well be cheaper in terms of ownership, but not necessarily hiring.   There are certainly some picturesque and interesting journeys to be made, although I've never cruised on continental waterways (or indeed in any bars!).   

I was surprised to learn the other day that Belgium (and I think most other European countries) prohibits the use of red diesel in pleasure craft.   Some British sailors have been heavily fined for entering Belgian waters with red diesel in their boat's tanks, despite that fuel being lawfully purchased and used in the UK.   Surely common sense should prevail and any vessel carrying nothing more than its own full tank of fuel should be entitled to fill-up wherever it happens to be and enter any waters.   After all, no-one is penalised for filling a road vehicle with diesel in a country where it happens to be cheaper (lower tax) and then driving into another country, Belgium included.

[FastFreddy2]

One would think that in the big friendly family that is the EU - supposedly - there shouldn't be those sorts of issues.

[FastFreddy2]

Yes, that should be the case, and certainly before Brexit was announced.   I find it hard to understand why there should be any sanction against nationals of one state bringing such a commodity, lawfully obtained there, into another state, at least for personal use - tobacco being a prime example.   But then of course tax and duty rates (and indeed the application of taxes and duties) are not harmonised throughout the EU - and the Belgians and others have criticised the UK for its over-generous treatment in the case of this fuel.   I now expect to see a UK resident fined for smoking his (lower-taxed) Belgian cigar on landing at Dover.

What compounds the 'fuel' nonsense is that any trace of red diesel discovered in one's tank in Belgian waters is enough to trigger the fine.   The only sure way would be to drain and purge the fuel tank before entry - both ridiculous and virtually impossible to do, quite aside from safety and pollution issues.  You couldn't make it up ...

[FastFreddy2]

It sounds like Belgium has decided any red fuel is illegal and those with traces of it are as guilty as those using whole tanks of the stuff. What is the lesson to be learned here? Don't take your boat to Belgium.

 

I read about a 'holiday' on a boat from 1 to 5 nights recently. The cost was £65 per person per night, maximum stay 5 nights. As I understood it, that price included food. Not sure if your were supposed to help out as part of the gig, or paying guests could help if they were inclined. If I remember, the boat was crewed by a husband and wife team, who journeyed on a fixed route, with guests able to join and leave on the round-trip journey. The proprietors were recommended, since they were found to be good-company.  

Edited August 4, 2017 by FastFreddy2

[Shyheels]

Belgium sounds a bit like those tinpot African countries where the officials at the border dream up ways of fleecing foreigners who try to enter. Or like those dodgy town or county sheriffs in states like Georgia who loved to pull over cars with northern tags and then drawl out something like: you in a heap o' trouble, Yankee. We respect the law here in Leviticus County and you got dirt on your license plate. I'm guessing five hundred dollars with of dirt, unless you want to spend the next six months pushing a broom around the courthouse...what was that you said?

The holidays with the husband and wife team sound like a great way of finding out if canal boats were going to be for you.

[Puffer]

9 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

It sounds like Belgium has decided any red fuel is illegal and those with traces of it are as guilty as those using whole tanks of the stuff. What is the lesson to be learned here? Don't take your boat to Belgium.

I read about a 'holiday' on a boat from 1 to 5 nights recently. The cost was £65 per person per night, maximum stay 5 nights. As I understood it, that price included food. Not sure if your were supposed to help out as part of the gig, or paying guests could help if they were inclined. If I remember, the boat was crewed by a husband and wife team, who journeyed on a fixed route, with guests able to join and leave on the round-trip journey. The proprietors were recommended, since they were found to be good-company.  

The 'floating hotel' holiday is certainly a good intro to canal cruising and helping to work the boat and locks would be an integral part of the cruise, although not compulsory.   But a complete DIY venture is even more fun and the learning curve is quite shallow.

By the way, although I believe that a very occasional narrowboat has crossed the Channel under its own power, the exercise is not recommended and requires a number of safety precautions, and special insurance.   So, importing red diesel into Belgium by that means is not really an issue!

[Puffer]

5 hours ago, Shyheels said:

Belgium sounds a bit like those tinpot African countries where the officials at the border dream up ways of fleecing foreigners who try to enter.

...

Much the same as the City of Brighton & Hove then!   (Off there later today - if I can afford to park the car.   No, not for 'Gay Pride' but to visit relatives!)

[FastFreddy2]

35 minutes ago, Puffer said:

Much the same as the City of Brighton & Hove then!   (Off there later today - if I can afford to park the car.   No, not for 'Gay Pride' but to visit relatives!)

I'm sure Shyheels would recommend his usual mode of transport to thwart the Dick Turpin council charges. 

I have some of the lyrics from an 'old tyme' ditty running around my head as I write ..... "on a bicycle made for two" ....   

The last time I visited Brighton, I believe I went there during a summers evening, specifically to walk around in a heel, and take in the 'sights'. Meaning other people out in a heel. Avoided parking charges by being an evening visitor. The last time I went there during the day, I found somewhere to park for free (possibly in a residential area with restricted parking up to 12.30pm on a Saturday), but was there with bicycles. That would have been circa 17 years ago. Parking in most towns has become problematic. Where I live, an HMO has put enough pressure on spaces outside my gaff, I am considering converting the small lawn outside the front door, to a pebble drive. At a friends street (different town) parking abuses, ie parking on pavements and blocking them to pedestrians, has forced the introduction of 'residents only' parking on the street. 

Surely the cost and reliability of public transport shares some responsibility for the need in private transportation? Even if/when I qualify for a bus pass, would I ever use it? My previous next-door neighbours used to travel into London for the day on a local bus service that no longer exists. They also tried trains, buying into a discount scheme, but unplanned trips were always fairly expensive when they travelled. (Who would 'plan' a trip 6+ weeks in advance knowing how changeable the UK weather is?)  

Brighton is so popular, it can afford to restrict visitor traffic into the area. Lucky them. I would like to find another coastal town to visit, where a voyeur could be suitably entertained, while also having a place to walk in a heel. I have been pointed at Eastbourne, and might try the town - hopefully this year.  

 

 

 

[Puffer]

Anywhere in Brighton (and Hove) that is within a mile or so of the seafront has parking restrictions, typically 9am - 8pm, 7 days a week.   High parking charges apply, if you can find a space.   And the zones creep outwards steadily, regardless of the absence of congestion or any lack of spaces - the exercise is revenue-driven.   If you go to Eastbourne, for example, it is not difficult to find free street parking within reasonable distance of the town centre/seafront - and there are quite a lot of single yellow lines allowing free parking after business hours or on Sundays.

I have a bus pass and use it when appropriate to access towns where parking is difficult/expensive - Canterbury for example, and sometimes in London.   The bus services in East Kent and Thanet are pretty good, and frequent, which is helpful when a day out is planned in that area - one can drive to an outlying part of town and park there if necessary.

[FastFreddy2]

23 minutes ago, Puffer said:

Anywhere in Brighton (and Hove) that is within a mile or so of the seafront has parking restrictions, typically 9am - 8pm, 7 days a week.   High parking charges apply, if you can find a space.   And the zones creep outwards steadily, regardless of the absence of congestion or any lack of spaces - the exercise is revenue-driven.

This doesn't surprise me in the least.

The town where Mrs Freddy works, is keen to do the same. They have introduced parking restrictions that mean visiting the town centre involves parking charges unless you care to walk over half a mile to the centre. There is free parking, but that is limited to an hour, and there's not much of it. The consequence to that, is the council are driving people away - people who would be spending money and supporting local businesses.

High rents, and the cost of the visit is reducing foot-fall rates. This and another town perhaps 10 miles away, have empty shops where previously there would have been queues of people waiting to set up a business. The cost of a personal visits is helping to make online shopping increasingly popular. This is not good, since it removes from our culture, the feeling of 'community'. That and social media, is producing more isolation of the individual. In my lifetime, there may come a time when there's little reason to leave home except to visit a place of work.

Not only is Brighton and Hove effectively restricting freedom of movement in their area, many seaside/coastal towns are doing the same. I have read reports of draconian action taken by councils toward Devon/Cornwall to reduce the numbers of visiting vehicles. Is the underlying message here, that the UK is "full"? Certainly I will attest, when compared to the freedom I enjoyed as a travelling visitor of 40 years ago is compared to the cost/inconvenience I have to do the same thing now, I doubt I could describe my current opportunities as "freedom".  There are very few places I can think of, where leaving my personal transport doesn't incur a charge for leaving the vehicle during normal hours of business. (Brent Cross - 20 miles, Lakeside 50 - miles and Bluewater - 60 miles.) 

Although the journey might take days rather than hours, travelling by water with only £5's worth of red diesel needed to get there, does making travelling by water something of an enticement.   Though the cost of ownership, puts the mode of transport in the RR/Bentley class of cost. 

Plainly, the solution is a bike trek, and a secure storage place for a bicycle. 

 

 

 

[Shyheels]

Bicycle touring has much to recommend it. I have toured all over the world and know no better way to get about and see the countryside. Britain and The Continent are both especially rich in possibilities.

[FastFreddy2]

18 hours ago, Shyheels said:

Bicycle touring has much to recommend it. I have toured all over the world and know no better way to get about and see the countryside. Britain and The Continent are both especially rich in possibilities.

I might be tempted abroad, but there is no way I would ride a bicycle on British roads. It's dangerous enough inside a car. 

There are many places I'd like to ride though. Back in the late 80's I had a weeks horse trekking holiday with a 'horse-mad' girlfriend in Wales, with me doing college revision during the morning ride period. We were both out with a guide for the longer afternoon periods, to places that seldom saw humans at all. I remember a huge lake sized reservoir that resembled a fjord. I wish I knew where we stayed so i could visit again. Not on the huge but friendly black and white dray that was my ride during that week, but on wheels so I could stay and take in the scenery for as long as food/water/shelter would allow. I'm not big on scenery usually, but the view of the reservoir as we approached the crest of the preceding hill is a sight I will not forget.

Yes, two wheels with an inflatable kayak and collapsible paddle on board for a trip across that huge expanse of water up in the hills of Wales. Perfect. 

 

Edit:  It looked something like this .... though the hill we approached from was much higher, and the one in the distance, higher and steeper still.

>> Google Streetview << for panoramic view.

 

Edited August 7, 2017 by FastFreddy2

[Shyheels]

Horses have minds of their own- bicycles do precisely what I want them to. And they are much less intimidating than horses!

Cycling in Britain us safe enough, especially if you stick to the lanes and you can go mighty long distances on the lanes. Sure, things can happen, but then things can happen to you anywhere, and in any way - more people are killed or injured in accidents around the home than while they are riding bicycles. And far more die in motor vehicle accidents, even when you look at it on proportional basis (accidents or fatalities per million miles cycled/driven)

[FastFreddy2]

9 hours ago, Shyheels said:

Horses have minds of their own- bicycles do precisely what I want them to. And they are much less intimidating than horses!

The horse they put me on was really placid and gentle, despite him being the largest horse in their stable. I'm not a rider, though I can stay on horse whatever it's doing - usually. Coming back from one ride, I was doing a rising trot while going down-hill. I lost my balance and headed over the top of the horse. I clung to its neck saving myself from a painful tumble. The horse just slowed down to let it's idiot rider sort himself out. It could have ended much differently of course (me with broken neck), but that horse was easily the calmest of the two of us.

When looking for a reservoir in Wales with no agricultural land around it, and no woodland, I did find a couple where cycling would have been possible without the worry of other traffic. There's no pleasure for me riding on a road, so it's trails, off-road, or nothing. I'm not unhappy for others to use the roads if they wish, but far better riders than me get killed on the roads all the time.  >> Shitty news item << Coincidentally, this happened in Wales.

Ratio's and statistics are great (though the comparison to accidents in the home is false), but they are a worthless 'insurance' if you happen to be one of the numbers that form the statistic. The chances of being hit by a train in this country are infinitesimally slim compared to a lethal bike accident, but I've witnessed exactly that first hand, and it wasn't a 'suicide' either. Bit of horseplay gone wrong .... Took perhaps 10 seconds from start to finish. Young man killed in front of his sister and two friends after a day shopping in London, all laughing loudly and joking about, only seconds before the accident.

Heavy metal objects (cars) always do better in an accident, so I'll stay away. We all make choices, and I've made mine.  

[Shyheels]

4 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

The horse they put me on was really placid and gentle, despite him being the largest horse in their stable. I'm not a rider, though I can stay on horse whatever it's doing - usually. Coming back from one ride, I was doing a rising trot while going down-hill. I lost my balance and headed over the top of the horse. I clung to its neck saving myself from a painful tumble. The horse just slowed down to let it's idiot rider sort himself out. It could have ended much differently of course (me with broken neck), but that horse was easily the calmest of the two of us.

When looking for a reservoir in Wales with no agricultural land around it, and no woodland, I did find a couple where cycling would have been possible without the worry of other traffic. There's no pleasure for me riding on a road, so it's trails, off-road, or nothing. I'm not unhappy for others to use the roads if they wish, but far better riders than me get killed on the roads all the time.  >> Shitty news item << Coincidentally, this happened in Wales.

Ratio's and statistics are great (though the comparison to accidents in the home is false), but they are a worthless 'insurance' if you happen to be one of the numbers that form the statistic. The chances of being hit by a train in this country are infinitesimally slim compared to a lethal bike accident, but I've witnessed exactly that first hand, and it wasn't a 'suicide' either. Bit of horseplay gone wrong .... Took perhaps 10 seconds from start to finish. Young man killed in front of his sister and two friends after a day shopping in London, all laughing loudly and joking about, only seconds before the accident.

Heavy metal objects (cars) always do better in an accident, so I'll stay away. We all make choices, and I've made mine.  

As a longstanding backgammon player - and not a bad one either - I am happy playing the odds, especially when they are heavily in my favour. I mitigate by being watchful and making sure I earn from every experience, take precautions, be alert and read the board constantly. 

For me cycling is a part of living. I couldn't not be out and about cruising the countryside on nice smooth bitumen - or as smooth as you're ever likely to get, anyway!

Edited August 7, 2017 by Shyheels

[FastFreddy2]

4 hours ago, Shyheels said:

As a longstanding backgammon player - and not a bad one either - I am happy playing the odds, especially when they are heavily in my favour. I mitigate by being watchful and making sure I earn from every experience, take precautions, be alert and read the board constantly. 

Conversely, I never gamble. I am one of the few people who could back the horse in a 'one horse race' and still lose my money.