Keen Diy'ers?

[FastFreddy2 282]

9 hours ago, Puffer said:

My point was merely that, if a new CU is on the horizon, it would be simpler and cheaper to organise it now than to wait for the new regs and extra cost, as metal-clad CUs are dearer, quite apart from discounts on stocks of current types.   If you have a quote for supplying and fitting one, it is not likely to remain valid if the cost increases under the new regs - unless your sparky is on really good terms with you.   I wasn't expecting you to fit it yourself, even though you might wish to supply a CU of your choice (bought wisely).

 

A very good point, thank you.

Thing is, the two sparks I know, also know I'm not overly generous with money, and also know I like the job done right. They are both more than capable, but both get 'good' money without any grief elsewhere. Christmas is an uber busy time as folk tend to get work done in the house for the holiday period. (I've just upset someone because I turned down the opportunity to help him install a new kitchen... And that kitchen needs to up up and running quickly.) My landlord mate/employer has had me nagging him, to nag one of these two electricians to get an extractor installed in the bathroom I refurb'd recently, to help keep the mould away. Is he returning his calls? Is the plumber with two jobs on the table returning calls? (One of which I almost certainly expect to get.)

 

Bit of an aside, (but the punchline is pertinent), but today ..... I got an 'urgent' call about a blocked sink in the house I'd been working in. The tenants (bless 'em) had tried in vain to deal with it, to no avail. Despite having a pre-arranged job elsewhere (that I finished at 11.30pm tonight) I went there to have a look first. It didn't look good.

Bottom line, it seems there has been some history of blockages dealt with by previous tenants. However, as time has passed, the old iron (we'll call it metal) pipework has 'furred up' and partially blocked. Tenants who don't know how to deal with fat, had added to the long-term problem associated with metal pipes, and managed to effectively bung up the metal pipe. Fortunately, access was possible, and 20 minutes of prodding with a 10 inch file, all but completely cleared the obstruction. The 2" (-ish) metal pipe that hangs off the metal soil pipe, is now probably the cleanest it has been for 20 years ....

The landlord who had arrived earlier, slightly freaked out because I had told him this was potentially a serious problem, helped me re-assemble the pipework leading back to the sink. As we were clearing up, I asked again about the extractor. He says; "If only the good people you want, were as reliable as you'd like." Obviously, I pointed out to him, some were reliable....    We are both aware, none of the plumbers we know would have come out today (unless the place was flooding) and getting out A.N.Other plumber from the Yellow Pages on an 'urgent' basis, would have involved £150-£200 appearance fees. Earlier while at Screwfix en route, the place was as busy as I have ever seen it, and not just with enthusiastic DIYer's. Most were Trades on the job.

 

It's a shame I wasn't aware of the impending  change 6 months ago really. There may have been some prospect of me having gotten the job done. But despite your good advice, it just can't happen.  

 

     

 

 

 

[Puffer 258]

If suitable for your (future) needs, this 'compliant' CU is worth considering:   http://www.screwfix.com/p/mk-sentry-16-module-10-way-metal-split-load-consumer-unit/2186g

The discounted price is not likely to last forever and worth grabbing.   I bought one of these a week ago for my son's forthcoming flat refurb/extension - and got an extra 10% off with a Screwfix discount code I was kindly sent; £72.00 net is pretty good, I feel.

No, I'm not building the extension for my son!   And not likely to be doing much of the peripheral work there either.   The flat was my late mother's and I fitted a new kitchen in it some 6 years ago, which saw very little use.   It now has to come out (kitchen area to be subsumed into new bedroom) and my son has offered it to me gratis if I will remove it.   That I will do (with a modicum of help) and then transport it (hired van) some 75 miles to my wife's aunt's house (which my wife owns and lets) where it will be reinstalled, replacing a time-expired and rather shabby kitchen.   Result (I hope): two satisfied relatives - or three in the unlikely event I please my wife too!   That is the next major project and will keep me occupied; removal in early January to temporary storage near aunt's house and installation there when I feel like it, but probably early March.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there are 'minor tasks' on my wife's list to complete (pre-Christmas, naturally) ...

[FastFreddy2 282]

1 hour ago, Puffer said:

 Result (I hope): two satisfied relatives - or three in the unlikely event I please my wife too!  

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there are 'minor tasks' on my wife's list to complete (pre-Christmas, naturally) ...

Every man has to understand his limitations ... Some things are literally, impossible.  

One of the two electricians lined up will only use his own 'supplied' CU, because he's used to them. (We've had a conversation about this some 2 or 3 years ago.) That said, the unit on offer at Screwfix does look a very attractive buy, and I've book marked it in the hope sparky no.2 will agree to install it. (If he ever picks up the phone and replies to the calls from 'landlord' mate.... ) You will know as well as I do, how onerous yanking fuse holders can be, so changing to a circuit breaker technology is very attractive. 

I'm not jealous of your kitchen re-use plan, though it's both commendable from the 'green' aspect of reuse, and the commercial benefit. You will be using equipment fitted better than the kitchens I had to work around yesterday afternoon/evening. Both installed by fitters 'recommended' by friends of the owners. Neither will be getting work from me. Having almost forgotten to cut a small slot for the washing machine power cable in some new backing material on a sink carcass, I tried to connect the plug to socket without pulling the cable. Not possible. The original fitter had taken the cable which leaves the top of the w/machine UNDER the carcass and back upwards to just under the sink. Sadly, having cut the slot, I found taking the power cable UPWARDS through the same hole the w/m waste pipe uses, was a significantly shorter route. How was that not obvious to an experienced fitter? 

[Puffer 258]

Altho

22 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

...

One of the two electricians lined up will only use his own 'supplied' CU, because he's used to them. ...

I'm not jealous of your kitchen re-use plan, though it's both commendable from the 'green' aspect of reuse, and the commercial benefit. ...

I've heard stories before about sparkies not liking to use what the customer supplies (especially CUs), although not experienced it myself on the few occasions one has followed me on a job.   I can think of three possible reasons: (i) unwilling to deal with any unfamiliar product, although quite capable of doing so, because it will involve extra time/effort; (ii) incapable of dealing with any unfamiliar product (in which case I would question his competence); (iii) wants to make extra profit on supplying the item(s).   

If I did not salvage the (perfectly good) kitchen (inc sink, oven, hob and extractor), they would probably end up in the builder's skip and my son would be paying for both removal and disposal.   And quite apart from the merits of recycling and saving expense, I put in that kitchen for mum with both love and care and I hate to see it 'vandalised' when it can easily be removed, relocated and re-used.   From memory, nothing was done in the original fit-out that will make removal difficult or prejudice the re-use.

[FastFreddy2 282]

1 hour ago, Puffer said:

If I did not salvage the (perfectly good) kitchen (inc sink, oven, hob and extractor), they would probably end up in the builder's skip and my son would be paying for both removal and disposal.   And quite apart from the merits of recycling and saving expense, I put in that kitchen for mum with both love and care and I hate to see it 'vandalised' when it can easily be removed, relocated and re-used.   From memory, nothing was done in the original fit-out that will make removal difficult or prejudice the re-use.

I would say an "engineer" (and I mean engineer in old school parlance - not someone who has little real world experience though a degree probably achieved with hard academic study), will always assume there will be maintenance work at some stage, and therefore not permanently fix anything that removal involves destruction. I would like to include myself under that umbrella term. There are very few times when I do anything I expect to be permanent, though Mrs Freddy insists the house will fall down before any of my work fails. (Bless her).

I'm also a great believer in "re-use better than recycle", and re-using something in the way you plan to, would be the very apex of re-use since some emotion will be involved. Well done sir.   

[FastFreddy2 282]

I've actually made contact with No.2 electrician! Not only that, he can fit a new CU before year end, but he only fits metal ones now and has done since about June. We have not discussed prices yet, though I (eagerly) look forward to no longer having to yank fuses out of a box fitted 2.1m from the floor. 

[Puffer 258]

19 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

I've actually made contact with No.2 electrician! Not only that, he can fit a new CU before year end, but he only fits metal ones now and has done since about June. We have not discussed prices yet, though I (eagerly) look forward to no longer having to yank fuses out of a box fitted 2.1m from the floor. 

Well, if 'he only fits metal ones' (I wonder why?), you don't need to worry about the 31 Dec deadline, but I guess you want the job done anyway asap.

As for reaching fuses 2.1m from the floor - what do you have 5" heels for?

[FastFreddy2 282]

3 hours ago, Puffer said:

Well, if 'he only fits metal ones' (I wonder why?), you don't need to worry about the 31 Dec deadline, but I guess you want the job done anyway asap.

 

I think he does a fair amount of new-build stuff.

We are currently working out if he is going to do it .... He doesn't wear heels (as far as I know ) and is showing concerns at the 2.1m working height, and length of tails. Although I live in a large terraced house, there only seems to be 6 (potential) circuits, with 5 in use. Upper and lower 5a lights (2) upper and lower 13a mains (2), and probably a 30 or 40 amp for the cooker (1), leaving an unused 30/40 amp supply (1). The 'fully populated' CU's at SF start at 10 circuits and go upwards....

Hopefully I'll have some news soon. 

[Puffer 258]

15 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

I think he does a fair amount of new-build stuff.

We are currently working out if he is going to do it .... He doesn't wear heels (as far as I know ) and is showing concerns at the 2.1m working height, and length of tails. Although I live in a large terraced house, there only seems to be 6 (potential) circuits, with 5 in use. Upper and lower 5a lights (2) upper and lower 13a mains (2), and probably a 30 or 40 amp for the cooker (1), leaving an unused 30/40 amp supply (1). The 'fully populated' CU's at SF start at 10 circuits and go upwards....

Hopefully I'll have some news soon. 

1.   I suppose your sparky is given a particular spec on the new-builds, which requires a 3rd Amendment CU, so he has 'forgotten' how to fit any others, but I really can't see why he should (apparently) refuse to do so whilst the existing regs permit.

2.  If you have the horizontal space, I would suggest it is better to fit a 10-way CU, even if only 6 ways needed at the moment.   Screwfix does list two 6-way CUs to new spec, but the cost saving (compared to MK 10-way previously mentioned) is zero on the MK 6-way and £10.00 on the BG 6-way.   And, if you get the bigger MK CU, you have potentially four 'free' MCBs for use somewhere else - or merely to gloat over in your bulging workshop store!   (The Wylex 16-way unit not now being used by my son will yield a number of MCBs and two RCDs that can be used elsewhere and in total are worth much more than the unit cost me.)

I may not have mentioned before that existing 'plastic' type CUs will remain legal for non-domestic installations.   Quite why a smallish shop (with all sorts of staff and customers, many of whom are pretty stupid) should be regarded as a safer risk than one's own home (ruled by pater with a rod of iron) is beyond me.   (But then a lot of the regs are baffling; which is safer: (a) newly added circuits using cable in the 'old' colour codes which match what was already present; or (b) new circuits in new cable colours and a notice warning you that there are now two codes in use ...?   That said, I don't think the use of the new cable is actually mandatory - and most of us still have good stocks of the old stuff.)

[FastFreddy2 282]

5 hours ago, Puffer said:

1.   I suppose your sparky is given a particular spec on the new-builds, which requires a 3rd Amendment CU, so he has 'forgotten' how to fit any others, but I really can't see why he should (apparently) refuse to do so whilst the existing regs permit.

 

 

Had what I would describe as a site survey today .... Bit out of the blue, but I was here, so it wasn't much of a problem (though the best two hours of the day for completing the photographs for my 'shining leggings' quest didn't get done .... as I had a guest ....)

The fella that turned up, wasn't No.2 sparks, but his help, who was also surprised about the 'only metal boxes' comment.  He also made comment that metal boxes were a PITA to fit because the knock-outs were seldom in the right place, or the right size, Plastic was much easier to work with, but the Fire Service wanted metal....

One of them has to check if my earthing is suitable, or if I need to run an additional larger cable ... Not heard the outcome of that yet.  

I'm beginning to feel a little disenchanted with the whole thing. 

 

[Puffer 258]

Yes, I've heard that the knockouts are often a problem.  If your sparky wants an easier life, he should agree to fit a plastic CU this month; he can't have it both ways!

I don't think the earthing issue is anything to do with the new CU but, presumably, your current earthing may not be up to standard.   I gather that the new metal CUs are themselves part of the earth and the individual circuits are thus connected directly to the casing, which slightly simplifies matters.

[FastFreddy2 282]

On 01/12/2015 at 10:15 PM, Puffer said:

Well, if 'he only fits metal ones' (I wonder why?), you don't need to worry about the 31 Dec deadline, but I guess you want the job done anyway asap.

 

On 02/12/2015 at 5:45 PM, Puffer said:

1.   I suppose your sparky is given a particular spec on the new-builds, which requires a 3rd Amendment CU, so he has 'forgotten' how to fit any others, but I really can't see why he should (apparently) refuse to do so whilst the existing regs permit.

 

Right, took some digging, but here is the answer .....

Originally, the change was supposed to be implemented as of July 1st 2015, but a shortage of the metal cased CU's meant an interim delay was permitted until Jan 1st 2016. Not all Building Inspectors (if I have the right role) are happy about the 'delay' and it's not unknown for one to insist a metal CU is installed as appropriate to the drawings which would have been specified on any post July 1st 2015 build/installation.

I have on offer a 15 way plastic (MK probably) CU, at an undisclosed price. I'm thinking this is a bit of over-kill for 6 circuits...   

[Puffer 258]

I was aware of the regulation deferment.   What didn't (and doesn't) make sense was the sparky's refusal to fit a plastic unit after July.

I now have the Wylex 15-way CU not now being used by my son.   Pity to waste it although all the MCBs, RCDs etc are valuable.

[FastFreddy2 282]

3 hours ago, Puffer said:

What didn't (and doesn't) make sense was the sparky's refusal to fit a plastic unit after July.

 

He was (miss) quoted as only fitting metal, I mentioned, I'm being offered a 15 way plastic CU to be fitted next week. 

His employers are the ones who get him to only fit metal ones to keep prospective pedantic inspectors happy. My mate with the electrical wholesalers tells me Screwfix are the only outlet he knows of that even has (limited) stock of plastic CU's, and then only because they bought up MK's residual stock at favourable prices. He sold out of all his 'plastic' stock some months ago.

[Puffer 258]

Toolstation also has plastic CUs at a discount 'currently'.   And so do other merchants.   I imagine they will all be shipped off to Africa or somewhere very early in 2016.   Perhaps Shyheels has a secret mission?

[FastFreddy2 282]

14 hours ago, Puffer said:

Toolstation also has plastic CUs at a discount 'currently'.   And so do other merchants.   I imagine they will all be shipped off to Africa or somewhere very early in 2016.   Perhaps Shyheels has a secret mission?

 

Part of the 'interest' for sparky No.2 to do the job, might be that he's able to offload one of his 'stock' plastic consumer units... That said, I don't like the sound of the unit offered anyway so ..... 

I had a browse of the hard to use Toolstation web site and initially was disappointed..... Until I found this:

 

 

Which seems almost perfect (a full rack of RCBO's would actually be perfect) and considerably cheaper than Screwfix! A well thought of brand too. 

Thanks once again, for the tip.  

 

 

[Puffer 258]

Yes, a good brand and CU - the Wylex I have spare here is just the larger version of same.   (Pity you cannot use it; we could have done a deal!)   

I also have a TS promo code (£5 off £40+ spend) valid to 21 Dec - but it isn't apparently transferrable or you could have it.  (I don't need to use it as I have already bought the filler, silicone, abrasive paper etc for my wife's Xmas present.  )

[FastFreddy2 282]

1 hour ago, Puffer said:

 (I don't need to use it as I have already bought the filler, silicone, abrasive paper etc for my wife's Xmas present.  )

 

What crackingly good ideas!  

[Puffer 258]

5 hours ago, Puffer said:

... (I don't need to use it as I have already bought the filler, silicone, abrasive paper etc for my wife's Xmas present.  )

 

4 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

What crackingly good ideas!  

Yes indeed - my wife likes a bit of rough.

[FastFreddy2 282]

Today, I had cause to start lifting floorboards in what is supposed to be our lounge.

I have to lay a cable, that I now doubt will be needed (another story not unrelated a CU installation.) To install the cable discreetly, I needed access to the underfloor void. The 'clever' attempt I did over the weekend failed, because inches before the cable I may need to replace goes downward, it crosses a joist. Grrrr.... As the floorboards have to come anyway for a major plumbing change anyway, I though I might as well lift whole boards now.

I found the boards had been "lifted" before. Radiators were repositioned by a previous owners employed plumber. It became obvious to me today, either a crowbar or screwdriver/chisel had been used to break the tongues and/or grooves from the boards when previously 'torn' up. They are in a sorry state. Even the joists  did not escape being damaged. I have collected a small bag of broken wood from under the boards, and cardboard corners from the replacement radiators. Not only were the boards lifted in a careless/cavalier manner, there is no obvious sign of the voids being cleared of fire kindling.  Why clear out rubbish, when you can leave it on the job?

 

There are many places throughout the house I have found similar problems, and got a price for replacement boards a few years ago, to be cut to the same dimensions as the ones I have here. The price was ridiculously high. Mine are the same as the B+Q boards sold at 'sensible' money, but around an inch slimmer. I found out recently the answer is a table router. I can cut the standard board to leave the pre-cut tongue, but I need to cut a groove on the opposite side. I had thought a plunge router carried along the edge of the board (with a guide either side) but it seems the answer is a table router with a fence. (Thank you You Tube.) I don't own a router, and I don't own a table ... Something else to add to the shopping list.

[Puffer 258]

I wish I had 10p for every handful of assorted debris I have removed from under various floors when boards come up.   As you say, Freddy, it is all too easy for previous 'tradesmen' to leave everything there (sometimes including tools, pipe fittings and other useful items!).

As to replacing your damaged floorboards, much will depend on whether they are to be covered afterwards (fitted carpet; vinyl; laminate ...).   If so, why worry about the different width - if the thickness is the same, surely you can mix-and-match with reusable removed boards and supplement in a suitable place with new ones of whatever width is available (cutting a narrow one if necessary for the fill-in)?    You may need to remove a few more boards to achieve the optimum repairable area.   And I question the real need for t&g, unless draughts or dust are a particular problem.   OK, you may end up with a bit of a patchwork, but if it's solid and covered, so what?   You are lucky in that you live (I assume) in a relatively modern house with boards that can be matched from stock for thickness - my Victorian house has boards that are about 3mm thicker than anything commonly used today; I always keep (or scrounge from elsewhere) any decent boards that match for thickness.   Another suggestion is to use chipboard (preferably P5 t&g) in 18mm or 22mm if this matches for thickness - a single panel might get you out of trouble in an area that is unlikely to need lifting again.   I nearly always screw down floorboards; 1.5" or 1.75" No. 8 csk screws are ideal and allow for subsequent removal with minimal damage to boards or anything under them.

A router is an extremely useful tool; I would not be without mine and am certain you will love it if you get one and realise its potential; very little practise is needed.   It does not have to be expensive either; 28295 from Toolstation (£49.98), SF 49312 (£49.99) SF 31457 (£35.99), or possibly Argos 711/3914 (£39.99) should all be fine for anything other than heavy repetitive work.   An extra set of 0.25" router bits is handy; again not expensive (and much cheaper than buying individually).   Mrs Freddy should be instructed to put these items on your Xmas list - NOW!  With the supplied fence and a Workmate, you can rout most things - I do have a small table but rarely use it - too fiddly and not always easy to use in its fixed workshop position.   You should be able to rout board edges (if you have to) using just the fence from one side, and possibly without needing to plunge cut - I rarely 'plunge' as I find it more difficult to control than taking (if necessary) several cuts at different fixed depths.  Just remember to allow a little extra board at each end so that the router/fence still has something to bear against at each extremity of cut.

[Puffer 258]

Freddy:  If you're interested (and quick), this 'used' Bosch router from Amazon is a good deal:  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B001E4EJ5S/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used&m=A2OAJ7377F756P

[FastFreddy2 282]

10 minutes ago, Puffer said:

Freddy:  If you're interested (and quick), this 'used' Bosch router from Amazon is a good deal:  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B001E4EJ5S/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used&m=A2OAJ7377F756P

Thanks for that, but Amazon is the absolutely last retailer I will buy through, not least because I abhor their business model. I have other concerns about returns after 30 days (when you seem to be on your own) although upto those 30 days a buyer has relatively good service.

 

The boards I will need to replace will, to all intents and purposes, be replaced on a like-for-like basis. I have done a bit of the 'patchwork' repairs, and I'm not happy with what I'm looking at. (Very mild OCD - though Mrs Freddy would say it's far from 'mild' when it suits me.) 

The old boards, and replacements come in 18mm/19mm thicknesses so that isn't much of a problem. The old boards are not glass-flat anywhere so losing or gaining 1mm isn't significant. The position (up down) and depth of T+G seems uniform on both. The issue is with board width, 'new' seems to be wider by around an inch. Ideally, I would be cutting off the groove to give me the correct width of board, and then cutting a new groove into the freshly made clean edge.

Originally, I had thought it would work something like this .....

 

But I now know I have this completely wrong.  

I had priced up a slightly used table and router for £85, but the router has terrible reviews. I'm now wondering if I should get a router, the bit I'll need, and make up a table for the one specific job? Effectively bolting the router in the right place to cut the groove, with 3 pieces of wood assembled to allow the new board to slide along a channel into the cutter? I could clamp the tooling to an old Work-Mate.

 

[Puffer 258]

Forget Amazon, then, Freddy.   I've not had any problems and a couple of returned items were dealt with properly.   The 30-day rule cannot be applied if anything is or becomes defective, as distinct from a change of mind.

I'm not sure what you propose re routing; if I understand your sketch it is broadly what I had in mind.   I would simply clamp the board vertically in Workmate and, if necessary, clamp another short piece of wood at each end, with tops of both (i.e. edge to be routed) flush and extra wood on opposite side to router fence.   Then simply run the router with fence along to cut the groove; more than one pass may be needed.   I see no need for a table, although this would obviate the need for the 'extension pieces'.  Setting up and holding the router so it is stationary and running the wood over it (as with a table) can work but is cumbersome.   (Although a router should be used in one direction (so its rotation causes dig-in rather than out), in practice this makes little difference on most cuts and you can run it to and fro, or round and round etc, particularly if cut is fairly shallow.)

[FastFreddy2 282]

The revised tooling I have in mind, would largely look like an open ended trough, through which I would pass the flooring.

Poking out from one side of the shallow trough, would be the cutter/cutting bit. The router to be mounted upside down and underneath, with the plunge function set to allow the groove to be cut at the right height. The two uprights forming the trough (fences - in table router parlance) would be glued and screwed to a larger flat piece, that could in turn be fixed/clamped to a Work Mate. The router would sit in the gap formed from the opened W/M.

The router and tooling is to do a single job. I already have a need for about 10m of new board, and the bulk of the boards to be found under old carpet have yet to be seen. I can't remember the quote from the wood yard, but it ran into several hundreds of pounds. They either priced themselves out of the job because they didn't want it, or recognised an idiot asking for a price.