Keen Diy'ers?

[Puffer 258]

Changing the subject somewhat, I have occasionally used Travis Perkins for selected timber and bulk sand etc.   There are two branches close to me but prices (even with so-called 'trade discount') are rarely competitive.   However, TP has an online site which is open to all and shows clear prices, with free delivery for a purchase of £20+ (Exc VAT).

I need a lightweight moulded door of a particular type for use (as a sliding door) at my son's abode.   B&Q does do them (£28 for a single at present, with 10% off for me on Wednesdays) but they are not stocked locally or widely, at least in the 30" width (although the 27" are more readily available - strange).   Other sources are significantly dearer and/or inconvenient.   By chance, I found the exact item in TP - and on 'special offer' too - at £25.14 delivered (£20.95 + VAT) - so a whole 6p cheaper than best potential B&Q deal.   I ordered one yesterday evening and was called by the local branch at 9.30 this morning to arrange delivery: any time Friday or next week.   I'm quite impressed; if TP can offer this service, it is likely to get some more business from me.   (TP owns Wickes, Toolstation, Benchmarx etc - often with the same items sold by each at wildly differing prices; the door I wanted was stocked at Benchmarx at treble the TP price, and that for 'trade'!)

[FastFreddy2 282]

2 hours ago, Puffer said:

I need a lightweight moulded door of a particular type for use (as a sliding door) at my son's abode.   B&Q does do them (£28 for a single at present, with 10% off for me on Wednesdays) but they are not stocked locally or widely, at least in the 30" width (although the 27" are more readily available - strange).   Other sources are significantly dearer and/or inconvenient.   By chance, I found the exact item in TP - and on 'special offer' too - at £25.14 delivered (£20.95 + VAT) - so a whole 6p cheaper than best potential B&Q deal.   I ordered one yesterday evening and was called by the local branch at 9.30 this morning to arrange delivery: any time Friday or next week.   I'm quite impressed; if TP can offer this service, it is likely to get some more business from me.   (TP owns Wickes, Toolstation, Benchmarx etc - often with the same items sold by each at wildly differing prices; the door I wanted was stocked at Benchmarx at treble the TP price, and that for 'trade'!)

Might the door size 'availability', reflect demand, which in turn reflects house dimensions since the early 80's? ie, New houses being made the size of large shoe boxes?

I have found TP to be a bit hit and miss on pricing, as yourself. You bought wisely though. Not only did you get what you wanted, but got it delivered for the same money (bar a favourable 6p reduction) you would have paid to collect from store. Given the time taken to collect, find one in good shape, then there's the journey/inconvenience of getting a door sized purchase to the destination address.... I'd say you have saved a fair bit of time/money too.   

While I can't be 100% sure, I believe I got our bath tap mixers from TP via post. Saved almost £20 on the next/nearest price I could find. And my full travel time/expense, was a 10 step walk to the phone. Double saving.

 

As Toolstation has been mentioned .... I have some needle files I probably use about once a month. I keep "losing" them, as their usual spot (top of a cardboard box) has had to become mobile. What a great relief to find TS had exactly what I wanted for £2-74. Had I not bought the last set held in stock, I had planned to buy a couple of sets. If I feel a bit flush during the next couple of weeks, I might even treat myself to some diamond needle files from the same source, priced at circa £12. There are few things in life I would suggest, that match the frustration of needing a tool that doesn't come to hand easily. "One day" I will have tool drawers, and a tool wall.... 

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer 258]

You may be right about door sizes on newer properties, although the most common 'standard' size remains the 30", which is often the cheapest when other sizes are also available for a given style.   And the trend nowadays is to improve access (for the disabled etc) so narrower doorways and passages are avoided, if not actually outlawed.

In my case, I have no difficulty buying and transporting a door of this size (or even larger) and in fact it would have been easier to pick one up from B&Q or TP than to get it delivered - with the potential for a missed delivery or a damaged item.   I got it delivered to me because my son would not normally be at home to receive it - but I now have to take it 35 miles to his abode!

Needle files are useful, but easily broken or clogged to the point of being useless.   I have many, collected over years, but the cheapest ones get used the most as they are dispensable.   Diamond files are however handy for 'special occasions'.  And, if you haven't got any, I recommend a cheap set of riffler files too - very useful on occasions for removing a small amount of metal from awkward spots. 

I have on a couple of lazy occasions ordered from TS or SF for free delivery here even though both are little more than one mile away and had what I wanted in stock.   But I did save about 40p in diesel, plus other running costs!

Funnily enough, I shall need a cheapish sink mixer tap in a month or two.   Unless the first car boot of the season comes up trumps, I shall be scouring the online sellers - including TP.

Did you sort out your Belfast sink OK?

[FastFreddy2 282]

20 minutes ago, Puffer said:

You may be right about door sizes on newer properties, although the most common 'standard' size remains the 30", which is often the cheapest when other sizes are also available for a given style.   And the trend nowadays is to improve access (for the disabled etc) so narrower doorways and passages are avoided, if not actually outlawed.

A 'standard size' discussion would be long and fairly fruitless I expect. I'm not big on doors, but I've yet to measure a door frame (or rather the gap for a door) and find a door available for sale in one of the sheds, that was sized for a direct fit. I learned a useful - if frustrating lesson about builders many years ago, regarding this and window sizes. While the sheds like to sell a standard size, builders have window frames, doors, door frames, made for the contract. I mean large contract builders when I use that term, who might be putting up anything from 5 to 500 homes on a site.

You are on the money about changes in Building Regs. While not many people know, white asbestos wasn't outlawed as a filler in residential homes (or elsewhere) until 24th November 1999. While Artex^TM stopped using it a long while before, it didn't stop everyone else. Current advice is; "if you can leave it alone, do so. If not, get it tested before you attempt to remove it".

Similar changes with walls, especially non solid (wood) or semi solid (low density) ones, that now have to meet a sound test with only pass/go results being possible.    

Plumbing, electric and gas, all now having higher standards of build than the 'bad' old days of the booming 80's. In fact any house built pre-2000 likely has a a lurking danger of one sort or another. I don't suppose a house was built anywhere during the 1960's that didn't have asbestos in it.  Yet the dangers of it had been know since 1930/31.

 

20 minutes ago, Puffer said:

 And, if you haven't got any, I recommend a cheap set of riffler files too - very useful on occasions for removing a small amount of metal from awkward spots. 

Never had an awkward spot, though plenty of painful ones. Never found it necessary to remove any metal from one either, strange that you do?  

 

I've priced up a diamond riffler set, and if I can get a diamond set of regular needle files from the same supplier, I might order both. Auction site and China, of course.  I got good service with a good price from a previous similar purchase: diamond sintered hole cutters for use with porcelain. Worked impressively well on my duff Armitage Shanks cistern.   

 

20 minutes ago, Puffer said:

Funnily enough, I shall need a cheapish sink mixer tap in a month or two.   Unless the first car boot of the season comes up trumps, I shall be scouring the online sellers - including TP.

Did you sort out your Belfast sink OK?

As reported, I have bought the waste. I ordered up the washer, made to my size a week later. It arrived in just 2 days. 

I was sure I had a small piece of copper plate, and some ali plate kicking around, but neither could be found. Nor could I find any suitable plastic .... Time is money, so I saved myself an hour of further searching by ordering a 3mm washer expecting it to take up to 2 weeks to arrive. It's been sent to a commercial address and is waiting my collection tomorrow. Ordering off the auction site saved me some money too.  The washer cost just over £7 delivered. Given how simple/reliable it will make the seal, I see it as money well invested. I think the time/energy needed to line up the sink overflow with the two new slots I will need to put in the waste, will use all my residual enthusiasm for getting the sink back in working order. Conversely, I could just assemble the waste as is, and hope the water flow route proves immaterial for the 4/5 months of use the sink might have. 

[Puffer 258]

16 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

A 'standard size' discussion would be long and fairly fruitless I expect. I'm not big on doors, but I've yet to measure a door frame (or rather the gap for a door) and find a door available for sale in one of the sheds, that was sized for a direct fit. I learned a useful - if frustrating lesson about builders many years ago, regarding this and window sizes. While the sheds like to sell a standard size, builders have window frames, doors, door frames, made for the contract. I mean large contract builders when I use that term, who might be putting up anything from 5 to 500 homes on a site.

You are on the money about changes in Building Regs. While not many people know, white asbestos wasn't outlawed as a filler in residential homes (or elsewhere) until 24th November 1999. While Artex^TM stopped using it a long while before, it didn't stop everyone else. Current advice is; "if you can leave it alone, do so. If not, get it tested before you attempt to remove it".

...

I think the time/energy needed to line up the sink overflow with the two new slots I will need to put in the waste, will use all my residual enthusiasm for getting the sink back in working order. Conversely, I could just assemble the waste as is, and hope the water flow route proves immaterial for the 4/5 months of use the sink might have. 

By 'standard size', I was referring to the common sizes offered for most ready-made doors in the trade.   There are several, but by far the most common is the 78" x 30" (with 27" a close second).   Same with ready-machined liners or frames.   Some suppliers now offer the metric equivalent of the 78" x 30" etc; there is very little difference and I suspect they only exist because there is a growing trend for metric measurements in building.   I agree that many doors/doorways do not conform - my Victorian house is a good example with hardly any two the same, and most wider than 30" (which is a bonus).   I am doubtful that speculative housebuilders go out of their way to make doors/doorways in most locations to (strange) non-standard sizes; it is simpler/cheaper to stick to stock sizes even for a big estate unless there is good reason otherwise (such as saving 50p per house, maybe!).

Having a background involving liability insurance (amongst other things), I well recognise the long-standing asbestos problems.   That said, the precautions for small-scale usage and exposure are somewhat overdone; a common-sense approach when finding it or removing it in the average domestic setting is enough.   It gets particularly silly when stable compounds such as asbestos-cement (roofing etc) have to be removed and disposed of.   I still have some 'Philplug' screw-fixing compound (a mixture of asbestos wool and plaster) which I may use occasionally; it is mixed and applied damp so of little concern in the typically small quantity required.   (But I wouldn't intentionally inhale the dust!)

I do wonder whether your Belfast sink was really designed for the waste you are using, washer or not.   A wider basket-type waste would do away with the need for a washer and, as it all comes below the sink, the sink overflow arrangement is irrelevant.   But, if yours works OK for the required period ... 

[FastFreddy2 282]

6 hours ago, Puffer said:

 I am doubtful that speculative housebuilders go out of their way to make doors/doorways in most locations to (strange) non-standard sizes; it is simpler/cheaper to stick to stock sizes even for a big estate unless there is good reason otherwise (such as saving 50p per house, maybe!).

I have twice worked in homes where there were no two doors the same size in the respective properties. I would respectfully suggest, there is only 'standard' to the sheds. Builders buy for the contract, and if the architect specifies 6 different door sizes to 'fit' his design, the builders will be ordering just what they need direct from the manufacturer.  (Hence the 'lesson' mentioned earlier.) My dry-lining mate who works on building sites, tells me 50p is important, as did the Buyer for a large building company I did my DMS with. 

 

6 hours ago, Puffer said:

Having a background involving liability insurance (amongst other things), I well recognise the long-standing asbestos problems.   That said, the precautions for small-scale usage and exposure are somewhat overdone; a common-sense approach when finding it or removing it in the average domestic setting is enough.   It gets particularly silly when stable compounds such as asbestos-cement (roofing etc) have to be removed and disposed of.   I still have some 'Philplug' screw-fixing compound (a mixture of asbestos wool and plaster) which I may use occasionally; it is mixed and applied damp so of little concern in the typically small quantity required.   (But I wouldn't intentionally inhale the dust!)

Government statistics IIRC suggest 4,000 tradesmen die each year due to asbestos related diseases. These would be people naively drilling/cutting/altering asbestos products in the course of their trade. I have been lax in getting all my Artex tested, but it's on the job list. I have ten samples to collect, and the only thing holding that up is me making the time to find the 20 bags I need to isolate samples. 

When we replaced the old boiler in that property last week, the cold water storage tank became obsolete. It is made out of asbestos cement, the same material you mentioned used for roofing. There was/is no liner. That water fed the bathroom sink, so for 55+ plus years, people of all ages have been washing themselves and brushing their teeth, in water previously stored in an asbestos tank. As I know the family that lived in the house from day one, I can confirm no-one has suffered illness from the water leaving that tank.

I suspect exposure to asbestos, is a bit like smoking in that it kills some, and ignores others.     

 

6 hours ago, Puffer said:

I do wonder whether your Belfast sink was really designed for the waste you are using, washer or not.   A wider basket-type waste would do away with the need for a washer and, as it all comes below the sink, the sink overflow arrangement is irrelevant.   But, if yours works OK for the required period ... 

Given the age of the house, I have my doubts it's original intended use included the fitment of modern plastics. The large sizing suggests a commercial connection, but I'm unaware of what that could be. I haven't seen sight of a plumber for some time, though I'm trying to line one up for more work in the 'new boiler' house. I may ask about the correct connector then. Coincidently, the supplier of the waste I bought, is also the same company this particular plumber works for. At the trade counter when making the purchase, I did ask about washers and connectors, which drew a blank. 

While mine might not be the most elegant solution, it will work. I now have the large washer, and I'm pleased with it. If I get lucky (which would be unusual) I won't have to replace the U bend or any of the downstream pipework as I'm effectively replacing like-for-like parts.    

[FastFreddy2 282]

On 19/02/2016 at 11:45 PM, FastFreddy2 said:

While mine might not be the most elegant solution, it will work. I now have the large washer, and I'm pleased with it. If I get lucky (which would be unusual) I won't have to replace the U bend or any of the downstream pipework as I'm effectively replacing like-for-like parts.    

 

Looks like I may have kept the inner dimension a little too tight when I had the washer made. Fortunately the parent material being aluminium, meant filing out around a half a mill' wasn't a long or hard job.

My favourite goo, Plumbers Gold was used extensively to ensure a good water-tight seal against the mating faces of the washer and sink. The thread on the waste was wrapped with PTFE tape (a whole reel) for the washer to butt against, and help seal the thread inside the washer. More PG was added for good measure.... Although the bend on the trap is in poor shape, it looks to be capable of working for another 3-4 months, so that wasn't replaced. More PTFE tape has helped keep the worn/damaged seals working.

Bottom line, there are no leaks, and we have the sink back. Within days the sink proved useful, in fact I've used the sink for cleaning tools almost every day since, so I'm glad I spent the £16 repairing the waste.

 

 

  

Edited February 29, 2016 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer 258]

Glad you got the job finished, Freddy.   Fingers crossed all will remain watertight and unblocked for the duration.

I spent the weekend working at my elder son's flat (normally a letting but occupied by him whilst his 'main' residence undergoes extensive alteration/extension).   I had (and still have) several minor-ish jobs to do to put everything in good order for intended autumn sale.   One of these was to rearrange the wiring in an en suite bathroom (which has no window) so that the humidity/timer fan is automatically switched on with the lights (as required by Building Regs) but without the lights being cut off if the fan (and another in an adjoining bathroom) are isolated.   A fairly simple alteration to reasonably accessible wiring should have done the trick - until I discovered that the fans are on a different circuit from the lights which prevents them from being 'amalgamated' - at least without an extensive rewire with no other requirements or advantages.   I then realised that, instead of the en suite lights and fan being separately switched by a two-gang wall switch just outside the en suite door, I could replace the switch with a single DP switch, each pole switching one of the circuits.   Not what a DP switch is really intended for but it will do the job, and safely.   Needless to say, I didn't have the necessary switch to hand so it will be obtained and fitted next visit - Dad hasn't finished yet!

Lateral thinking - whether aluminium washer or unconventional switch use - wins the day.

[FastFreddy2 282]

13 hours ago, Puffer said:

Glad you got the job finished, Freddy.   Fingers crossed all will remain watertight and unblocked for the duration.

Knowing there might be an issue, I will be doing some 'flushing' maintenance from time to time. Historically the real problem was less the settling of debris below the waste over-flow inlet, and more the fact the overflow outlet of the sink was almost completely blocked with plumbers mait, as was one of the original waste inlet holes. 

 

Quote

One of these was to rearrange the wiring in an en suite bathroom (which has no window) so that the humidity/timer fan is automatically switched on with the lights (as required by Building Regs) but without the lights being cut off if the fan (and another in an adjoining bathroom) are isolated.

This is a timely reminder to me, about an isolation switch for a bathroom extractor.... Our current arrangement excludes one, and as I'm doing a fair amount of work in the bathroom at the moment, I ought to make provision for the upgrade to include one of these. 

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer 258]

10 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

This is a timely reminder to me, about an isolation switch for a bathroom extractor.... Our current arrangement excludes one, and as I'm doing a fair amount of work in the bathroom at the moment, I ought to make provision for the upgrade to include one of these. 

Depending upon the existing wiring and how accessible things are, you have a choice between (a) a DP switch (or a 3A fused switched spur if the fan circuit is not already fused) before you supply the fan, in which case the switch will operate it; or (b) a 3-pole fan isolating switch between the supply and the fan, assuming that the fan requires a permanent live as well as a switched live.   If the fan is operated in tandem with the light, (b) will generally be needed.

I'm not really sure why fans require an isolating switch, allegedly for 'maintenance' purposes.   Any sensible person would isolate at the CU (if no downstream isolator was fitted).   But I suppose that the presence of a permanent live in many (but not all) fans introduces a further hazard and justifies a fancy 3-pole isolator.

[FastFreddy2 282]

1 hour ago, Puffer said:

Depending upon the existing wiring and how accessible things are, you have a choice between (a) a DP switch (or a 3A fused switched spur if the fan circuit is not already fused) before you supply the fan, in which case the switch will operate it; or (b) a 3-pole fan isolating switch between the supply and the fan, assuming that the fan requires a permanent live as well as a switched live.   If the fan is operated in tandem with the light, (b) will generally be needed.

At the moment there is no extractor, as the old worn out unit was dumped some time ago. Our bathroom door doesn't stay closed for long (door handle was removed/dumped some years ago too) so we rely on low use/adequate natural ventilation for moisture control. It works but ...

I've had a brief look as new extractors ... some suitable for bathrooms, some not. Some having a closed status when not in use, some others being completely open to the outside world. Some with variable delay (off) after light (switched live) is removed. I've even been advised (3rd hand) of a system that runs 24/7?

My preference is to run a humidity sensitive system that both starts (above) and stops (below) a low-ish humidity level that has already been set. The potential handicap of this, if not started by a light-pull initially, is the extractor running continuously when/if we next get a summer. 

The fan 'head', won't be placed too far from the power source, which will be the main room light, but adding an isolator will likely create a level of buggerment I might choose to avoid. In principle, I am replacing (on a like-for-like basis) a system installed 40+ years ago. Isolating one circuit would be do-able, but isolating two would not be attractive. If I remember, the one switch I've seen in use, was placed at the top of a door frame. A hole had been drilled through the top of the frame for a cable to pass through, behind the switch, and a very pretty job it was.

Maybe I need to source an extractor first? It has to be ceiling mounted, and around 6 inches for the fan diameter. (Well that's the size of the hole in the ceiling at present.) 

Advice?    

 

[Puffer 258]

On 3/2/2016 at 1:08 AM, FastFreddy2 said:

...   

I've had a brief look as new extractors ... some suitable for bathrooms, some not. Some having a closed status when not in use, some others being completely open to the outside world. Some with variable delay (off) after light (switched live) is removed. I've even been advised (3rd hand) of a system that runs 24/7?

My preference is to run a humidity sensitive system that both starts (above) and stops (below) a low-ish humidity level that has already been set. The potential handicap of this, if not started by a light-pull initially, is the extractor running continuously when/if we next get a summer. 

...

Maybe I need to source an extractor first? It has to be ceiling mounted, and around 6 inches for the fan diameter. (Well that's the size of the hole in the ceiling at present.) 

Advice?    

 

I fitted this fan a few weeks ago in the ceiling of the en suite at my son's flat:   http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Airflow-Aura-eco-100HT-100mm-Humidity-Bathroom-Extractor-Timer-Fan-9041349-/350614005792?hash=item51a2392820:m:mj_CCSkVaHHbNF8-RpYbcqQ   The same fan is available elsewhere but this was, I think, the cheapest source (£24.95).

It is humidity controlled and has a timer overrun; both are adjustable.   So, for addition to lighting circuit, it requires a switched live, perm live and neutral feed.   It is very quiet (reason for choosing this model) and seems to have settled down quickly, but the low power and noise means that, even if it runs continuously in 'humid' conditions, it can be ignored.  There is no internal shutter but that is not needed if (as I prefer) there is a 'flap' on the external grille.   The fan requires a 4" hole, so if your existing one is 6" (as many old fans were), I suggest you patch in with a piece of plasterboard and skim before re-cutting a 4" hole.  (I can explain a technique to make that easier if you wish.)   You could fit an equivalent 6" fan but that would involve more expense and is really overkill unless bathroom is very large.   What size is onward ducting?

[FastFreddy2 282]

54 minutes ago, Puffer said:

I fitted this fan a few weeks ago in the ceiling of the en suite at my son's flat:   http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Airflow-Aura-eco-100HT-100mm-Humidity-Bathroom-Extractor-Timer-Fan-9041349-/350614005792?hash=item51a2392820:m:mj_CCSkVaHHbNF8-RpYbcqQ   The same fan is available elsewhere but this was, I think, the cheapest source (£24.95).

Added to 'watchlist' thank you.

 

Quote

 The fan requires a 4" hole, so if your existing one is 6" (as many old fans were), I suggest you patch in with a piece of plasterboard and skim before re-cutting a 4" hole.  (I can explain a technique to make that easier if you wish.)   You could fit an equivalent 6" fan but that would involve more expense and is really overkill unless bathroom is very large.   What size is onward ducting?

As stated, the "old" hole is 6 inch in diameter though the old airflow route was made with 4"/110mm soil pipe for the most part. It's being completely replaced, as is the ridge tile vent, sometime this spring.

The (current) indirect cold water supply arrives care of a large 50gal tank sat directly above the bathroom. 40 years of the empty/fill cycle has mosaicked the plasterboard ceiling, as the boards were originally left with large gaps and poor filling. This weeks job is to completely remove the cracks, and is for the most part, well on the way to being done. I have already filled in one 6in hole where the previous owner used a halogen lamp fitting to warm up the room. [She had some very peculiar ideas on lighting.] I had thought to fill the old extractor hole too, but my repair regime involves the use of 9mm ply as backing, and I'm unsure whether the extractor flange would cope with ½" plasterboard and 9mm of ply? If it will, I'd gladly fill the thing in as it's quite a mess. It has sunk a little too, but I have a way to remove that problem .... Well, I have if this mornings job works out okay.  (Removing a 4-5mm protrusion from one board edge.)

I'm thinking a larger fan removes the same air volume, with less speed? Meaning a larger fan has the potential for being quieter? Things have moved on in 40 years obviously, as I know from my computer experience and the use of "silent" fans.... So maybe a modern 4 inch fan will remove enough air quietly where a 6 inch fan was needed before? 

Edited March 3, 2016 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer 258]

The Airflow fan has quite a long rear spigot and will certainly allow it to project through (say) 1" of total ceiling and with enough remaining to go nicely into a 4" pipe duct (or, as in my installation, a corrugated aluminium duct).   But, if you are in any doubt, just make the duct come through to the front face of the ceiling - which might make fitting easier anyway, especially if access above the ceiling is poor.

I don't really think you need back the entire hole with ply - you could just have a couple of strips or tabs, which would leave the hole area itself free of ply, if that helps.   And that can be done working entirely from below - screw and/or glue the ply above the PB overlapping the edge of the oversize hole and then fix the 'insert' to it likewise.   Gripfix or equivalent solvent-free adhesive is ideal for this.

There are several different types of fan these days and I think that the main development has been to provide smaller and more powerful fans (and often quieter too) which makes a 4" man enough for most jobs, large kitchens aside.   The old Xpelair or Vent Axia 6" chunky (ugly) fans are a thing of the past, although still sometimes seen and working too.

[FastFreddy2 282]

2 hours ago, Puffer said:

I don't really think you need back the entire hole with ply - you could just have a couple of strips or tabs, which would leave the hole area itself free of ply, if that helps.   And that can be done working entirely from below - screw and/or glue the ply above the PB overlapping the edge of the oversize hole and then fix the 'insert' to it likewise.   Gripfix or equivalent solvent-free adhesive is ideal for this.

 

My repair regime has 9mm ply glued to the loft side of the plasterboard, and screwed down from the bathroom.  The plasterboard 'patch' (used in several other places in the house) is then screwed to the ply board that covers the old hole. I have done this, where using tape to prevent further cracks wasn't convenient. In the bathroom, I've also glued the straight joins of boards, then used tape along them too. Any one of these three repair methods ought to be sufficient in themselves. I will not be doing this job a second time. Mrs Freddy is convinced the ceiling will survive an earthquake, which was -of course- part of the design remit.  Having seen the ceiling in 2 or 3 other homes of the same style in our street, we will have the only one that is crack-free, and that includes one that happens to be the home of a plasterer.

I have a picture of the ceiling with the repair regime completed save for tape and skim finish. It rather looks like someone with an air rifle has used the plasterboard for target practice.  I used a LOT of screws. 

Elsewhere in the house where this regime was used, my dry-lining mate mate was shocked when he saw it. Not because he thought the repair didn't function, but he couldn't believe how someone with a reputation for being "careful with their money" had managed to use so many screws.  Charming....   99p for a box of 200 is the answer. 

 

I'll have a closer look at the fan mentioned, with a view to purchase. 

 

[Puffer 258]

7 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

 

My repair regime has 9mm ply glued to the loft side of the plasterboard, and screwed down from the bathroom.  ...

 

Arguably, screwed UP from the bathroom.   But then again, nothing you do is intentionally 'screwed up' - and I likewise!  

Your ceiling repairs are likely to outlive you.   And I am strongly suspecting that you normally attire yourself not only in leggings under trousers but with the latter held up by a belt, braces, string and a bungee cord, just in case!

99p for 200 screws?   Cheaper by the 1000 if you know where to go.   (Incidentally, I found a cheapo auto-feed screwdriver very useful when 'rebuilding' my seaside flat - some 97 plasterboards in all.   I have (had) a source of cheap collated PB screws too, which was most helpful.)

[FastFreddy2 282]

32 minutes ago, Puffer said:

Arguably, screwed UP from the bathroom.  

If read 'as written', the subject was the ply, which I assure you was screwed down to the plasterboard.

 

Quote

Your ceiling repairs are likely to outlive you.

Given my age, that might not be the compliment I could take it for.   As long as I don't see cracks again, I'll be pleased about any amount of work that went into the repair.  The real grief is getting the 'donkey's-hind-leg' of a ceiling something close to flat. Yesterday I reported one edge of the plasterboard was prone. Nope, it was the plaster skim. So not only cracked, but the ceiling was quite uneven to start with.

 

Quote

99p for 200 screws?   Cheaper by the 1000 if you know where to go.   (Incidentally, I found a cheapo auto-feed screwdriver very useful when 'rebuilding' my seaside flat - some 97 plasterboards in all.   I have (had) a source of cheap collated PB screws too, which was most helpful.)

Did I ever envisage I'd need more than 200 screws? Nope. 

At 2 for 1p they are good enough value for me.  The auto-feed screwdriver would be another matter though. I don't usually work fast enough to need one, but with a glue set time of around 10 minutes, and a hand size slightly disproportionate for my body size, something like an auto-screwdriver would have been very useful. I am something of a technophobe when it comes to DIY 'gadgets'. I've only just started using my cordless drills for putting screws into wood. I probably won't live long enough to get up-to-speed on auto-feed drivers. As much as I might benefit from them.  

Edited March 4, 2016 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer 258]

I must be missing something, Freddy (maybe I have a screw loose?).   You said: (a) ' My repair regime has 9mm ply glued to the loft side of the plasterboard, and screwed down from the bathroom.' and (b)  'If read 'as written', the subject was the ply, which I assure you was screwed down to the plasterboard.'

If you are truly saying that you screwed through the ply into the plasterboard (really - and got a decent fixing?), then I accept your screws were and remain pointing downwards.   But, if the loft was above the bathroom (as in most houses!*), how were you screwing 'down from the bathroom' rather than 'down from the loft'?   I think we should be told.

* Except presumably that built for the kinky architect who had his house made [ or was it 'housemaid'?] upside-down. 

In suggesting that your repairs might outlive you, I intended no compliment - just likely fact!  

I sympathise about you tool-related technophobia, having had treatment for this myself (no ointment involved).   Until about five years ago, when the mammoth flat rebuild started, I owned no cordless tools (bar a pathetic cheapo screwdriver) and could see little merit in them.   But, having used a friend's cordless drill on a project we were sharing, I realised its convenience, at least.   Now, two cordless drills later (one being used almost entirely for screwdriving), I admit their merits in awkward places - but prefer mains power when practicable and have no intentions to expand the portfolio with jigsaws, circular saws, routers, planes etc.   (My words may yet come back to haunt me.)   And the auto-feed screwdriver isn't cordless either, although it would have been quite handy if it was.   It cost me about £22 on eBay and earned its keep very rapidly with close to 5,000 screws to insert - although a fair number needed that final twist with a manual driver when the studs (e.g. oak) were hard.

[FastFreddy2 282]

13 hours ago, Puffer said:

I must be missing something, Freddy (maybe I have a screw loose?).   You said: (a) ' My repair regime has 9mm ply glued to the loft side of the plasterboard, and screwed down from the bathroom.' and (b)  'If read 'as written', the subject was the ply, which I assure you was screwed down to the plasterboard.'

I too am missing something obviously.... Methinks you are (perhaps) confusing the direction of the screw being driven, with the object (ply) about which I (consistently) say is being screwed down(ward) onto the top of the plasterboard.

 

On 04/03/2016 at 9:29 AM, Puffer said:

Arguably, screwed UP from the bathroom.   But then again, nothing you do is intentionally 'screwed up' - and I likewise!  

So ..... Screwed down from the bathroom then ....   

 

Some of my phobia relates to my first cordless hammer drill. A Black and Decker 18v jobbie with two Ni-Cad batteries. A good tool, but always had flat batteries when I needed to use it, although I used it very infrequently back then. Now, I will ONLY buy lithium powered cordless anything.

"Skilsaws" aka circular saws, scare the bejesus out of me. The one time I used a full size one, under direction from a maintenance chappie, I nearly cut through two 22mm water pipes, each with circa 50 gallon tanks upstream and no way of shutting down the mains supply to them. (Although I didn't know about the seized mains stopcock at the time.) That was a lucky escape that still haunts me.

Subsequent to that, I bought a MAC (B+Q trade name) sander. Simply the worst £36 I've every spent on tools. Speaking as someone with receipts that go back as far as 40 years, I don't know how I lost the receipt for this piece of junk. I usually tape them to the retail packaging, which is often kept in the loft or the garage. Anyway, the (expletive deleted) dust box would not stay on that sander, not that it worked very well for the 10 seconds it stayed on before it fell off. If I could have found the receipt, it would have been returned. B+Q would not accept it back without a receipt, although they knew it was theirs. The receipt 'proved' I was the original purchaser of course...... The sander, and the box it came in, went to the tip. I was pleased to see the back of it, though the money lost didn't sit well. 

Edited March 5, 2016 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer 258]

10 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

I too am missing something obviously.... Methinks you are (perhaps) confusing the direction of the screw being driven, with the object (ply) about which I (consistently) say is being screwed down(ward) onto the top of the plasterboard.

So ..... Screwed down from the bathroom then ....   

...

I think that you have 'nailed' it.   In the ceiling repair, the ply was on top of the plasterboard and they were fastened together by screws inserted through the PB into the ply (and using some glue).   I accept that, in the normal course of things, one would fabricate such an item 'on the bench' upside down, thus screwing downwards into the ply - but you suggested that you made the patch in situ, so must have inserted the screws from below the ceiling and screwed them upwards.   It is the suggestion that you 'screwed down from the bathroom' that doesn't match your procedure, hence my original challenge - you couldn't have screwed anything 'from' (i.e. from within) the bathroom - or (except for a prefabricated patch) even just 'within' the bathroom, whether up or down.

B&Q should not have refused to deal with your defective product if you could produce a reasonable alternative proof of purchase, e.g. credit card slip/statement or bank statement.   I think I have a Mac (MacAllister) mitre saw (230V) - bought slightly used at a boot sale and which works very well; a friend has bought/used a number of tools of this brand and considers them very good for the price paid.   (Despite the name, I'm sure they are from China and therefore not likely to be quite in the DeWalt league - but certainly not at DW prices either.)

[FastFreddy2 282]

3 hours ago, Puffer said:

 It is the suggestion that you 'screwed down from the bathroom' that doesn't match your procedure, hence my original challenge - you couldn't have screwed anything 'from' (i.e. from within) the bathroom - or (except for a prefabricated patch) even just 'within' the bathroom, whether up or down.

I would appreciate a direct quote to reference the "suggestion".

The second part of the paragraph would bear some further explanation, as it makes no sense at all to me?

Given how much effort I put into (attempting) to make my prose as unambiguous as possible, sometimes repeating (labouring) the original message, I am disappointed there remains some doubt here.

 

The regime - in entirety: (Cracked Hessian/plaster has already been removed from the plasterboard join in the bathroom, when this procedure begins.)

1: Nails passing into the noggin through the plasterboard (PB) joins are pulled out, downward. The residual nails holding the noggin in place between the ceiling joists (rafter tie), are cut flush to allow clean removal of the noggin. This leaves a section of two butted plasterboards floating 'in air'.

2. With the width between the joists measured, a piece of 9mm ply is cut to size, with 3"/75mm of landing given to either side of the join to be bridged. The ply is trial fitted, as the joists are not square/perpendicular to the PB. If the ply needs any adjustment, that is done before the next step is completed.

3. The 3"/75mm outer edges of the ply patch are marked on both the bathroom side and the loft side of the butted PB. The marks in the room below are used as guides for drilling, the marks on the PB in the loft are used to ensure correct placement of the patch when the join is hidden, and for location of glue.

4. 3mm holes are drilled through the PB from below, pitched around 4-5 inches. Four rows of holes are made. On each side of the join, there is a row of holes that will be covered (eventually) by tape and skim, and a second row closer to the edge of the ply that will likely only be covered by skim. The outer holes (to the join) are countersunk.

5. In the loft, the backs of the newly made set of holes are cleaned up, so paper 'burrs' are removed, and the marked area is cleaned of dust.

6. Still in the loft, the area between the previous marked limits of the patch are moistened with wood glue. The ply patch is applied, and weight sufficient to maintain its position is laid onto the ply patch. (The ply has some curve to it.)

7. Inside the room below, 3mm x 20mm c/s screws are driven through the PB into the ply patch, pulling it down to the plasterboard surface to effect a good bond with the PB. The 'patch' ensures there is accurate alignment of the PB butt. The glue is allowed some time to set.

8. Once the ply patch is firm enough to tolerate some working, any residual plaster is removed from between the two butted edges of the PB. A slightly flexible adhesive caulking is used to mostly fill the gap, and to prevent any differential in the position of either piece of PB. The adhesive is given two days to cure.

9. A self-adhesive mesh tape is applied to bridge the open join in the room. A skim of Easi-Fill is applied, that is pushed into any residual gap between the butted PB's and just about covers the mesh tape. This is allowed to dry completely.

10. A further skim of Easi-Fill is applied to the rebate left from removing the original Hessian ribbon and plaster that joined the two butted edges of PB, and had cracked over the years. This is allowed to dry.

11. Any protrusions or ridges are sanded out, before a third skim of Easi-Fill is applied, that is feathered out some 6 inches or so either side of the original join being repaired. When this is dry, the (hopefully) final coat is flatted and painted.     

 

As I am so familiar with the process, my experience/imagination may have joined some dots I may not have written up the process to include. If there is a visible gap I have missed, please mention it while there is still time for an edit. 

 

Quote

B&Q should not have refused to deal with your defective product if you could produce a reasonable alternative proof of purchase, e.g. credit card slip/statement or bank statement.   I think I have a Mac (MacAllister) mitre saw (230V) - bought slightly used at a boot sale and which works very well; a friend has bought/used a number of tools of this brand and considers them very good for the price paid.   (Despite the name, I'm sure they are from China and therefore not likely to be quite in the DeWalt league - but certainly not at DW prices either.)

The theory is good, in practice ....

I buy everything with cash, if I make a personal shop purchase. With the internet, I use C/C or increasingly P/P (because I don't need to type in my address two or more times). The MAC sander was cash.

Having worked in retail, I would not accept C/C slip or Bank Statement as POP, but only proof of spending. It's an unwinnable cause I could debate with (probably) poorly paid shop managers, who don't make decisions, they only follow the store manual. I've been told twice by their returns section, "no receipt-no refund", even on 'own brand'. It was £36 wasted, and dumping the thing allowed me to move on. 

I would be happy to agree, that MAC products usually provide good value for money, and IIRC come with a 3 year warranty. What's not to like? While working with a plumber/tiler recently, I had the chance to compare his multi-tool with mine. His, a MAC, came with a fast blade change head, and a blade illuminator. Mine has neither, and changing the blade on mine is a PITA. His was also cheaper. I have read some unsavoury things about MAC routers, but then I've read unsavoury things about every router costing less than £100 or wasn't made by Makita....  Sadly for me, I don't have what most would describe as a 'forgiving nature'. I doubt I will buy MAC again, even if it costs me money to avoid it. (Cut-my-nose-to-spoil-my-face attitude.) A character flaw (one of many) that I am unlikely to 'unlearn' at my age. 

Edited March 6, 2016 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer 258]

9 hours ago, FastFreddy2 said:

I would appreciate a direct quote to reference the "suggestion".

The second part of the paragraph would bear some further explanation, as it makes no sense at all to me?

Given how much effort I put into (attempting) to make my prose as unambiguous as possible, sometimes repeating (labouring) the original message, I am disappointed there remains some doubt here.

...

I buy everything with cash, if I make a personal shop purchase. With the internet, I use C/C or increasingly P/P (because I don't need to type in my address two or more times). The MAC sander was cash.

...

We are in danger of falling out over semantics; I doubt you want that any more than I do.   But, for the record, look in the middle of your penultimate post (why are there no post numbers?) and you stated:  'So ..... Screwed down from the bathroom then ....   '.   As to the latter part of my comment, I can see that it might be puzzling in view of the overall misunderstanding but I was simply indicating that the only screws you inserted and drove home from within the bathroom were those going up into the new ply patch - as your latest comments appear to confirm.

As to your detailed procedure (thanks for that), I would only comment that your reference to 3mm x 20mm csk screws indicates that they are not PB screws.   I assume you did not use 25mm PB screws (the shortest normally available) because you did not want to pierce through the ply.   But would it matter if you did (unless the cat pricks its paws walking uninvited in the loft - which ought to be insulated anyway)?   And using PB screws obviates the need for drilling and countersinking; as you know, the point and bugle head on a PB screw do this for you very well - but preferably with screws driven carefully by hand to get them just below the PB surface.   A small further thought - MDF (ideally 12mm) is quite good for backing patches etc in this situation; easier to work with and unlikely to be bowed - and I usually have plenty of offcuts.

One technique I have used successfully when either patching or butt-joining boards without two mating tapered edges is to plane, rout or scrape and sand away the surface of the board(s) to create the equivalent of a tapered edge (say 2-3mm deep and around 30mm wide).   It is best if the board joint will be supported by a joist or noggin and abrading can be done before or after fixing (but, if the latter, any screws may need temporary removal to avoid fouling the cutting tool) and obviously needs care to avoid breaking up the board, although some irregularity or gapping is permissible.   I then seal/bind the abraded surface with diluted PVA, allow this to dry and apply tape (preferably mesh, although paper can be used) and joint filler etc in the usual way.   This avoids the need for the inevitable over-filling and feathering that a flush butt joint requires and can give a near-invisible finish (which I find is rarely achieved with feathering).   My only choice (short of overall skimming) when boarding a ceiling that has its length and width both greater than that of a single board length.   (Yes, I know that boards longer than 2.4m are made but not easily or conveniently obtained.)

As to paying cash for personal shop purchases, you surprise me.   A matter of choice, of course, but often hardly convenient and denying you the potential protection of section 75, Consumer Credit Act 1974.   My guess is that you like to be anonymous when shopping in persona (wearing heels or not).

 

[FastFreddy2 282]

2 hours ago, Puffer said:

We are in danger of falling out over semantics; I doubt you want that any more than I do.   But, for the record, look in the middle of your penultimate post (why are there no post numbers?) and you stated:  'So ..... Screwed down from the bathroom then ....   '.   As to the latter part of my comment, I can see that it might be puzzling in view of the overall misunderstanding but I was simply indicating that the only screws you inserted and drove home from within the bathroom were those going up into the new ply patch - as your latest comments appear to confirm. 

There are post numbers, but you have to click on the "Posted" remark on the upper lefthand side of the comment, adjacent to the posters name. The post number, along with the complete URL of the post is revealed. Not ideal.

 

As you will doubtless now understand, the ply is indeed screwed down (to the plasterboard) from the bathroom. The screws are effectively drawing the loose ply down onto the top of the plasterboard. As I am familiar with the process - as now are you - perhaps the potential for ambiguity has gone, though I had not recognised the opportunity for any.

 

Quote

As to your detailed procedure  to your detailed procedure (thanks for that), I would only comment that your reference to 3mm x 20mm csk screws indicates that they are not PB screws.

No, they are wood screws. I drill through the plasterboard with no screw-threads attempting to hold the PB at all. The screws grip into the ply, with the heads of the screws pinching the two media together.

 

Quote

I assume you did not use 25mm PB screws (the shortest normally available) because you did not want to pierce through the ply.   But would it matter if you did (unless the cat pricks its paws walking uninvited in the loft - which ought to be insulated anyway)?   And using PB screws obviates the need for drilling and countersinking; as you know, the point and bugle head on a PB screw do this for you very well - but preferably with screws driven carefully by hand to get them just below the PB surface.

 

I want a flush finish above the ply. Electrical cables cross this area, despite the 50 gallon water tank being there. I do not want to present the opportunity for me or anyone else, to create an electrical short by pushing live cabling onto a piercing hazard. 

 

Quote

 A small further thought - MDF (ideally 12mm) is quite good for backing patches etc in this situation; easier to work with and unlikely to be bowed - and I usually have plenty of offcuts.

 

MDF doesn't perform well if wetted. Mindful of the water tank, it's location (loft) MDF was seen as a liability. There are also hazards from cutting dust. It's versatile stuff, but the ply has the potential for strength and maintaining its form if dampened.

 

Quote

One technique I have used successfully when either patching or butt-joining boards without two mating tapered edges is to plane, rout or scrape and sand away the surface of the board(s) to create the equivalent of a tapered edge (say 2-3mm deep and around 30mm wide).   It is best if the board joint will be supported by a joist or noggin and abrading can be done before or after fixing (but, if the latter, any screws may need temporary removal to avoid fouling the cutting tool) and obviously needs care to avoid breaking up the board, although some irregularity or gapping is permissible.   I then seal/bind the abraded surface with diluted PVA, allow this to dry and apply tape (preferably mesh, although paper can be used) and joint filler etc in the usual way.   This avoids the need for the inevitable over-filling and feathering that a flush butt joint requires and can give a near-invisible finish (which I find is rarely achieved with feathering).   My only choice (short of overall skimming) when boarding a ceiling that has its length and width both greater than that of a single board length.   (Yes, I know that boards longer than 2.4m are made but not easily or conveniently obtained.)

 

The butted joins were not tapered, but were already recessed into 3-4mm of finishing plaster. I had hoped to 'top-up' the recess with Easi-Fill, and paint over, but the ceiling wasn't skimmed flat anyway. I did mention earlier, that one board edge appeared to protrude, but on sanding I found it was the skim coat that was 'high'. (Or was actually lower into the room than the rest of the ceiling.)

Where a hole remains for the old extractor, the plasterboard has dropped 3-4mm due to 40 years of weight on unsupported PB. Where the halogen lamp was fitted (also mentioned previously) the heat has curled the PB slightly upward into the loft by a couple of mm. In some ways, replacing the boards completely would have been a sensible/quick solution, but not in the middle of our winter, with Mrs Freddy needing a warm area to wash/shower every day. (Twice a day.)

Sealing the plasterboard is a good idea, and anywhere else I would use PVA too. However, PVA can be livened up if dampened, and in a bathroom that would undesirable. I used a thinned priming paint (not written up) which helped 'fix' the paper surface of the board, and gave a uniform surface to the whole contact area for the self-adhesive mesh tape and subsequent skim. The primer I favour acts like SBR in that when dry, no amount of water livens it up again.

 

Quote

As to paying cash for personal shop purchases, you surprise me.   A matter of choice, of course, but often hardly convenient and denying you the potential protection of section 75, Consumer Credit Act 1974.   

As you might rightly guess, cash removes the opportunity for an audit trail. I don't need one. Cash purchases also mean anyone can do returns.

I was about to write that I have never needed the Consumer Credit Act, but realised but for a single instance, that would be true. Last year I bought a large double-glazed panel made to my specifications. Part of the agreed 'condition of supply' was that I be provided with all fixing, including those for the glazing panels. I was not. I now know the solution, but the panel is not fitted. The glazing unit fits into the recess for it, but the uPVC frame is not square. Possibly if the unit had been installed by someone else, I might not be aware of it, but I am aware of it.

At the moment, I am looking to pursue a case based on Trading Standards legislation, in that it's not 'fit for purpose'. In this single instance, I would have had a better time if we had bought on a credit card. The unit cost £400 and has been a major draw-back to progress.

Currently, I am unsure what course of action to take. I have not dwelt on it, because I know the pursuit of a refund will be both time and energy consuming. During winter, I have other priorities. As spring approaches, I will have to chase this problem up. 

Edited March 6, 2016 by FastFreddy2

[Puffer 258]

Thanks, Freddy; all noted.

The ambiguity that has led to misunderstanding is your several references to 'screwing down', which to me firmly suggested the insertion/tightening of screws in a downward direction in situ (i.e. from the loft), which clearly was not the case.   Yes, the fastening of two items together with screws can be properly described as 'screwing down' (as in 'screwing down a box lid') but would be better described as 'screwed together' or just 'screwed' (as in 'screwed and glued').   The suggestion of direction that 'down' imparts can be misleading, as in this instance, and really adds nothing to the narrative.   But my apologies for persisting when perhaps I should have twigged things earlier - my original comment ('Arguably, screwed UP from the bathroom.') was really tongue-in-cheek because I could see the unintended impossibility of what you had said before and assumed merely a typo.   Let's leave it there; we are both right!

Are you not insulating the loft, e.g. with glassfibre or rockwool - with cables etc laid on top of that (or 'above' it if you prefer! )?   If so, the protrusion of screws etc would not matter anyway.   And that reminds me: as a cheap, virtually inert 'bulk' material, such insulation is very handy for other jobs, such as packing out pieces of plasterboard when patching in, part-filling deep joints before applying plaster etc or (mixed with filler) first-filling awkward crevices.   And the fibres can add strength, much akin to horsehair-and-plaster.   It is also obviously suitable for wrapping round pipes etc that might rub in a notch or masonry hole.

I agree that MDF, in your location, might not be ideal.   I don't however accept that using PVA as I envisaged is hazardous; it is an accepted primer (or admixer) for plastering/filling and, when thus incorporated or overcoated, ought not to react to moisture in the air any more than anything else you have used/installed.   I wasn't saying that anything other than the exposed plaster infill should be so primed - but even if one did prime a board surface, it is little different to using an emulsion paint, which is similarly formulated.   (I prefer to use a silk emulsion - or acrylic- paint on kitchen/bathroom ceilings to give a little more resistance to steam than a matt emulsion would.)    And I do realise that your boards were not tapered and had been skimmed; my general suggestion for joining non-tapered boards is clearly not readily applicable in such a case (if skim etc can be cut back) but is very suitable in new work - I estimate I created about 80' of such 'substitute tapers' (i.e. 40' of butt joints) in my flat rebuild and was pleased with the result.

As to the glazing panel, you now know what protection you missed.  But good luck with the claim anyway.

[FastFreddy2 282]

7 hours ago, Puffer said:

Thanks, Freddy; all noted.

The ambiguity that has led to misunderstanding is your several references to 'screwing down', which to me firmly suggested the insertion/tightening of screws in a downward direction in situ (i.e. from the loft), which clearly was not the case.   Yes, the fastening of two items together with screws can be properly described as 'screwing down' (as in 'screwing down a box lid') but would be better described as 'screwed together' or just 'screwed' (as in 'screwed and glued').   The suggestion of direction that 'down' imparts can be misleading, as in this instance, and really adds nothing to the narrative.   But my apologies for persisting when perhaps I should have twigged things earlier - my original comment ('Arguably, screwed UP from the bathroom.') was really tongue-in-cheek because I could see the unintended impossibility of what you had said before and assumed merely a typo.   Let's leave it there; we are both right!

 

Well okay, but ..... One of us is righter ...    <<=== Humour alert!

 

7 hours ago, Puffer said:

 

Are you not insulating the loft, e.g. with glassfibre or rockwool - with cables etc laid on top of that (or 'above' it if you prefer! )?   If so, the protrusion of screws etc would not matter anyway.   And that reminds me: as a cheap, virtually inert 'bulk' material, such insulation is very handy for other jobs, such as packing out pieces of plasterboard when patching in, part-filling deep joints before applying plaster etc or (mixed with filler) first-filling awkward crevices.   And the fibres can add strength, much akin to horsehair-and-plaster.   It is also obviously suitable for wrapping round pipes etc that might rub in a notch or masonry hole.

When the time comes, all the rockwool/fibreglass currently residing in the loft will be removed. Every last fibre. It will be replaced with loose treated recycled paper, probably topped (if necessary) with some well know thermal blanket, the name of which I don't recall. It is sold encased in a silver plastic? The object of the change, is to have a medium that doesn't irritate skin or lungs. And doesn't cover any tradesmen (or me) in filth when a visit is made. I would have the loft as 'muck-free' as possible. Ideally it would for the most part be boarded out too, but that is a long way off at the moment.  

 

7 hours ago, Puffer said:

 I don't however accept that using PVA as I envisaged is hazardous; it is an accepted primer (or admixer) for plastering/filling and, when thus incorporated or overcoated, ought not to react to moisture in the air any more than anything else you have used/installed.   I wasn't saying that anything other than the exposed plaster infill should be so primed - but even if one did prime a board surface, it is little different to using an emulsion paint, which is similarly formulated.   (I prefer to use a silk emulsion - or acrylic- paint on kitchen/bathroom ceilings to give a little more resistance to steam than a matt emulsion would.)

We don't need to agree techniques on everything. PVA is a water based glue that can be livened up if it becomes moist, unlike SBR which I tend to use more often anyway. Since I have a better solution to hand, why wouldn't I use the better solution? The thinned primer is acrylic based. I don't need the addition of PVA (or SBR) which is often used for additional bond, and for reducing excessive suction in porous surfaces. Easi-Fill is sticky enough, as is the jointing tape. 

 

7 hours ago, Puffer said:

As to the glazing panel, you now know what protection you missed.  But good luck with the claim anyway.

I'm happy to use Trading Standards and the courts (if necessary.) My experience with banks in matters such as these, has not been great. Thank you for your good wishes.